Is Intelligent Design Like Scientology?

I find this very interesting especially in the cultural perspective. I would love to see how other cultures approach the ID argument. It should give us new perspectives and hopefully expose cultural biases in the current debate on both sides.

Yes, you are right about that.

I grew up in Australia, so I am very aware of this.

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Patrick, think about it. How acceptable is the argument that ID is not science because a US judge decided so in a US court based on the US constitution for an American school Board to someone who is not American?

As the the debate goes international, you would have to move beyond legal definitions and craft arguments based on history/philosophy of Science. Definitions will have to become more global and transcultural.

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Whether or not it is science is a separate issue.

I think they are ultimately right on the conclusion, but the ID arguments emphasized in biology appear to be invalid. This does much to confuse a right conclusion.

At some point I hope it will be widely recognized within ID that the best case for design arises when we ruthlessly purge all bad arguments for design. Arguing against legitimately invalid arguments, makes space for and draws attention to the good ones.

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Those are both sponsored by the U.S. based Discovery Institute.

Other countries also have their share of flat Earthers and Geocentrists too. That doesn’t make flat Earthism and Geocentrism be up and coming relevant scientific ideas.

That ruling only legally keeps religion-based ID claims out of public science classes. That ID as presented now is not science is well known throughout the mainstream science community.

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can you back this up with documents? And does sponsorship mean absolute conformance?

Sure… All it means is that Its not a purely US based movement and hence the arguments for/against it cannot be confined to American legal interpretations and such.
I am making a limited point here in response to your claim about School systems and such.

This is a good point… You should stick to saying why this is so… instead of harping on school syllabus and such IMO.
Maybe you can start a post giving clear reasons for why ID is not science according to the main stream Science community. I am sure it will be educational and well appreciated.

It was all over EN&V when it happened.

I agree the Kitzmiller ruling only applies to U.S. schools. The rest of the world, like the IDers in the U.S., are free to publish their positive evidence for ID anytime and anywhere they like. Scientific journals would be fighting over such evidence if it was credible. Anyone submitting such evidence would be a shoo-in for the Nobel Prize. What’s stopping them?

I’ll give two good ones now

  1. ID as presented now makes no testable predictions which are unique to and arise from ID.
  2. ID as presented now is not falsifiable

What has to happen is some brave IDer has to hypothesize about the abilities and limitations of the Designer. Then they have to start coming up with some testable predictions about the specifics of “Design” - the mechanisms used, the timelines, the how, when, where, and by who questions every other science tries to answer. IDers are reluctant since virtually all of them hypothesize the Designer to be their omnipotent God.

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Ya… but that doesn’t mean they supplied money in addition to free publicity and perhaps an endorsement. Why make claims you cannot substantiate?
I for one would love a reasoned new post from you which gives a reasoned argument as to why ID is not Science without relying on rhetoric.
I am sure, it will foster understanding even if it doesn’t lead to agreement.

I just posted one. :slightly_smiling_face:

I saw it and appreciate your points…
what i had in mind was a new post (i.e one without the heading “Is ID like Scientology” and a more detailed argument with examples to which the ID scientists here can respond if they wish to.

If they don’t, you still have a post you can point to whenever the Question
“is ID science ?” comes up. I am sure @Patrick would love it.

ID proponents can respond to the points I just made right here if they wish. I bet no ID “scientists” respond though. All they can do is argue against accepted evolutionary theory. Providing positive evidence for their own claims is an alien concept.

The problem with this particular corner of the site is that its not very visible. Who in their right mind is going to take something with the heading “is Intelligent design like scientology” seriously enough to browse through all the posts and reach yours?

Its totally upto you. I just gave a suggestion.

If ID wants to be taken seriously by the scientific community they’ll start doing the actual science on their own. But they won’t. ID is a religiously motivated political movement whose goal is to convince laymen, not the scientific community.

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So i guess thats a no…

I would compare ID to the use of E-meters. The detection of CSI may be comparable to the detection of thetans.

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I am so gonna make myself a CSI dowsing stick!

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Scientology is more than strange beliefs. They are also viciously controlling in a systematic, personal and invasive organization.

Say what you will about DI, but this is not a good description of them.

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