What if the text describes a revelatory vision, which you’ve already admitted is possible? Tell the hit man to meet me at the merry-go-round.
I did not admit it was possible that Gen. 2 was describing a revelatory vision, because that’s not what its describing. I merely admitted that the word used for “deep sleep” used there was used in the Old Testament twice to describe the state people fell into before they had some sort of experience like that. But the other references show that it is not mandatory or even normal for such an experience to be associated with such a state of being. In fact in a couple of those places it indicates that they were not even aware of what they were supposed to be aware of going on around them.
You are adding to the text what is not there. If I say “I went to sleep” I am not saying that I had a dream. A dream may be something that is sometimes done in sleep, but its not what I said. In particular if I said “I went to sleep when the Dr. put me under before surgery” spinning that into a tale about my dreams is torturing the text. It’s not there.
The problem with that is that by the time you take enough to sleep, you don’t wake up again. Plus of course you get the gastric bleeds…
Whereas, as any doctor will tell you, if you take too much paracetamol hoping not to wake up, you stay conscious long enough to change your mind, and discover you have hepatic failure and are going to die anyway.
No doubt the skeptic will tell you it was aspirin, which was why Adam got hallucinations and thought he and his wife met a talking snake.
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Yes; no doubt that someone, somewhere, will try to assert that I was claiming that this particular Neanderthal skull, found with traces of salicylic acid on the teeth, was actually Adam’s skull, and the whole Biblical story resulted from a bad drug trip.
That, of course, is a totally unwarranted interpretation, but it accomplishes a predetermined purpose.
Doesn’t any one just laugh at ironies any more? : )
So, Mark --if I tell you “my wife was handed to me on a silver platter,” have I therefore denied her a normal birth and upbringing? That’s how idiom functions.
Otherwise, go tell Walton he’s a crackpot, and stick to your unwarranted dogma. I’ll continue looking at the evidence.
@anon46279830 & @Guy_Coe (@swamidass)
My good brothers, let me offer my own points:
-
You two are disputing this issue like it will effect Swamidass Model. I don’t believe it will.
Because “The Models” are going to be flooded with optional choices. -
Neither of you are the Poster Boy for the model: Revealed opposes full-throated Common Descent.
And Guy-the-Insurance-Man opposes Special Creation even of Eve! -
If anyone listens to Joshua mumbling under his typewriting/breath… he or she may have noticed
something - - he wants something that bridges “hitman conflicts”… rather than provoking the conflicts. -
But for $10, I can corrupt all the files here… and make it say whatever you two want it to say… okay…
make it for $20… I have expenses…
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Thanks… all good here. Just clariying what the text does, and doesn’t say or require.
The insurance man is also my brother, but his name is “Gei.” He shortened the spelling on his last name.
I’m quite sure Joshua has had plenty of moments where he’s shaken his head at each of us.
He has a different goal than either Mark or I, but I daresay he’s actually enjoying the discussion despite it all.
I’d make a terrible poster child; I’ll have to make some videos sometime to show you why. : )
My wife was handed to me on a silver platter, you know…
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@gbrooks9 you are basically right, but its fine for them to hash out their own positions. @anon46279830 and @Guy_Coe, keep in mind it is more important to help people deal with their hang ups than push for our own view. The de novo creation of Adam is important, what ever your personal point of view, because it is important to other people.
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Honestly, I’ve been having fun with all of you. It was a specially honored to have @Guy_Coe take a road trip down to CA to see at some Veritas Forums:
It was equally good to see @anon46279830 in St Louis, where he gave me a copy of his book and was a surprise guest on a seminary panelist.
In the end, we need to grow the Peaceful Science community. I have some important things planned in the next couple months. Focus in on guests, and make sure they are heard and welcomed. Invite more people, and lets turn this into a crowd.
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Understood… that’s why you hear a lot of “what if’s” from me, because it’s the most empowering and creative way I know of to get people to confront their “hang-ups” (your words, Josh, not mine… : ).
One of my favorite book titles is “Sacred Cows Make Great Hamburgers.”
With persons like Mark, Jon and George, and others here, I feel comfortable inviting them to grind at the meat a bit.
Please forgive me guys, if my creative drumbeats cause distress more than wonder.
This is a terrible medium to really hash this stuff out amicably, though I know I would enjoy your company in person.
I have a model in mind, obviously, that I’ve worked hard to synthesize, which has led me in a completely surprising direction because of my focus on the text. Obviously, a high view of Scripture never leads everyone in the same, monolithic direction --and I’m good with that.
It’s an invitation to seek the Lord together with people I admire, in a specialty subject area that’s, potentially, of critical apologetic value to the future of the church.
A paradigm change, from my point of view, that leads to a higher evaluation by students informed by current culture AND potent biblical scholarship in context and linguistics.
Cheers!
On other Jewish commentary for “deep sleep” of Adam as being put into a visionary state:
https://israelbiblecenter.com/splitting-the-adam/
https://books.google.com/books?id=5gqBj0GAPiAC&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=Adam+deep+sleep+as+visionary&source=bl&ots=5JsS3GD-ot&sig=rY-77wSV-bWLVZlqqsFAdKcj_wM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjp87l1ufbAhWUnoMKHaPDDigQ6AEwAnoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=Adam%20deep%20sleep%20as%20visionary&f=false
I include this to show it’s an active issue in OT scholarship, though it may not be widely familiar to many evangelicals.
The question is, what is a faithful ancient Hebrew understanding of the story?
If you look within the range of historical commentary, you’ll find that Mark’s view and mine are both bandied about indecisively, removing the basis for dogma on either of our parts:
http://biblehub.com/genesis/2-21.htm
Scroll well down beyond the modern English translations to, say, Ellicott’s Commentary and various others below that, and you’ll at least see that I’m not just making this stuff up.
So, @Guy_Coe,
is there an established writer who also interprets Adam’s sleep this way?
There’s gotta be at least one, right?
Look at any of the links. Right now, the most visible evangelical on this is Walton, but there are a number of others. Seriously, just peruse the biblehub.com material, if you don’t, for whatever reason, value the Jewish debate on this.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/march/lost-world-of-adam-and-eve.html
Hey, Guy, maybe you could be a little more specific? I did a search on “sleep”… and I didn’t find anything relating to Adam and sleep.
Could you actually LOCATE an article instead of putting me on a goose chase?
The “Christianity Today” link above is an article.
Already done. Cheers!
Well… now we know why I couldn’t find anything in that link …
the article only has a few paragraphs available for non-subscribers. Sweet…
I didn’t realize that this “vision” was part of Walton’s mega-scenario…
You know, the Greeks had a story about man and woman being created as one … it may have
come to the Greeks via the Persians.
Here we are:
Proposition 8: “Forming From Dust” and “Building from Rib” Are
Archetypal Claims and Not Claims of Material Origins
In chapter 8, the formation of Adam from dust and Eve from Adam’s side is also described archetypally. In the consistency of not yielding to a material explanation of origins, Walton again attempts to show that a Hebrew word typically understood as “formed” (יצר) is not required to have a material object, although he admits that in many cases it does. The Genesis 2:7 description of Adam formed of dust is explained as an archetypal depiction of human mortality. To ancient Israelites, they knew what it was like to see ancestor’s bones decaying to dust thus seeing the evidence of mortality. Likewise, Adam’s sleep is said to depict a visionary experience of Eve as one of his whole sides and thus archetypal of an important one-flesh union in his life (Walton and Wright 2015, 80). It is not seen as an account of the actual creation of Eve. What the church has typically understood as creation events, Walton has explained as archetypal examples of life, death, and relationship between men and women."
Plato writes “Plato’s Symposium”, in which a man named Aristophanes, tells stories at an elaborate dinner.
One of the stories is about the original humans being an Androgene. I have not yet determined whether Plato simply made this up… or if he obtained from another culture.
There is a way to view Genesis 1:26-27 as God “splitting apart” an androgene, but the view never gained much attention in Jewish or Christian circles.
Weird that the link didn’t let you in; I’m not a subscriber, either. May try to find another link to replace that one.
I’d have to check whether the “Wright” mentioned alongside Walton is N.T. himself, or not, but this issue is not in a corner --it’s being actively assessed. Glad you found some of his stuff.