James Tour at McGovern Medical School in Houston

And here is the short answer:

Quoting Tour,

James M Tour Group » Evolution/Creation

I have been labeled as an Intelligent Design (sometimes called “ID”) proponent. I am not. I do not know how to use science to prove intelligent design although some others might. I am sympathetic to the arguments and I find some of them intriguing, but I prefer to be free of that intelligent design label. As a modern-day scientist, I do not know how to prove intelligent design using my most sophisticated analytical tools— the canonical tools are, by their own admission, inadequate to answer the intelligent design question. I cannot lay the issue at the doorstep of a benevolent creator or even an impersonal intelligent designer. All I can presently say is that my chemical tools do not permit my assessment of intelligent design.

Forgive me but there’s just something off about that.

I’m really a scientific nobody. Just some guy, who happened by strange coincidence back in 2007, to get an interest in evolution and molecular biology, and I have largely self-taught most of what I know of this material by simply being willing to read and understand the output of biochemists and evolutionary biologists. It even inspired me to get an education as a lab technician in cell and molecular biology.

I didn’t go to university, haven’t learned math beyond the high school level, honestly didn’t do all that well in school when I was a kid, and obviously I don’t have a Nobel Prize in chemistry. Yet I was able to “get” this stuff within a few years. I’m not some unusually mentally gifted individual by any stretch. It is amazing what genuine curiosity, and a non-hostile mindset can do for your learning ability.

I confess to have great difficulty accepting the idea that one of the world’s foremost synthetic organic chemists doesn’t understand the concepts of and evidence for macroevolution and common descent.

2 Likes

Have you talked to many chemists?

They know almost nothing about evolution, and they typically use a very different reasoning pattern than biologists. I work professionally with chemists and biologists and find it striking how different the two worlds can be.

Keep in mind that most scientists train very narrowly. Evolution is just not part of most chemists training. Tour also was shunned by many of his colleagues when he signed the dissent from Darwinism. The ID movement embraced him. So much of his introduction to biology was by way of them, without any balance from trusted people who affirm evolution.

It is not hard at all to find chemists doubtful of evolution. There are many more I know.

2 Likes

Perhaps people who don’t know much about evolutionary biology shouldn’t go around signing strong position statements on evolutionary biology. I hope he’s learned something from that.

(Of course I could have signed that statement based on its actual text, but I would have done so knowing what the text meant. But I wouldn’t have signed it, since I know what the intended subtext was. It was, in other words, a dog whistle, though some of the signers were apparently unaware.)

3 Likes

Would it be fair to say that he’s a creationist by faith alone and despite such scientific evidence as he is aware of?

I would expect that, I don’t have an issue with the idea that James Tour doesn’t know of evolutionary biology from his training as a chemist. In my own training as a lab tech, I was taught exactly zero evolutionary biology.

What I’m saying is that it is very surprising to me, given that Tour has spent time trying to understand it, that he seems to still don’t, considering the fact that he’s likely to be very intelligent. Particularly considering how his training as a chemist gives him a head start in the sense that he should be familiar with at least some of the terminology in biochemistry and molecular biology.

I had to learn how to read scientific papers, I had to google hundreds of new words, ask contributors on many different forums what they meant, write emails to scientists asking them to take time out of their lives to clarify concepts and phrases, lines of reasoning they used in their papers and books (of which some of them were happy to do), and so on.

I’m still infinitely far from being able to say I have any qualifications of note in evolutionary biology, but coming to understand some of the evidence for common descent, and the sheer magnitude of it, really isn’t the most difficult thing out there.

3 Likes

That is very true and your post is an important one.

I’ve made very similar statements contrasting the theology academy and the scientific academy—differences which most people assume to be obvious and yet an observation with implications beyond what many have assumed.

I spent a lot of time in faculty lounges in various university science departments, humanities departments, and seminary departments. The various differences and similarities in ways of thinking, life experiences, breadth of academic training, senses of humor, ranges of talents and hobbies, political positions, philosophies, grasps of multi-culturalism, and many other factors were absolutely fascinating—and certainly not always predictable. (And which professors most struck me as widely read and multi-talented “Renaissance men/women”? You might be surprised.)

With all that in mind, I can very much grasp what Dr. Swamidass is saying.

And even though I’m reasonably grounded in the fundamentals of evolutionary biology and I eagerly affirm such science, I continue to be “doubtful” at times about some aspects of evolutionary processes in the sense that I am still training my “intuition proclivities.” In other words, some aspects of evolutionary science still clash with my natural intuitions. Evolution can just plain seem counter-intuitive at times. (Perhaps some day I will organize a list of examples and explain what I had to go through to make sense of them.) That’s why so much of science education actually entails training and guiding our intuition so that it operates in harmony with the available evidence.

I recall a fascinating study by a School of Education professor where she tested eighth-grade students on basic astronomy concepts like “Why are there seasons?” She found that even some of the best students who could properly answer exam questions on this topic immediately after it was covered in science class would revert back to their original wrong answers just a few months later. Why? She posited that such students were retreating to more comfortable, intuitive notions, such as the assumption that a closer orbital position to the sun made the earth warmer in the summer. (Post-exam oral interviews with students provided evidence for this hypothesis.) This education scholar used her results to urge her teachers-in-training to consider that their job is not just to help students memorize science facts—but to train their natural intuitions to better conform to the realities of evidence. (Exactly how she does that is unclear to me because I didn’t read her series of publications on this topic.) Apparently human evolution has given us brains which sometimes reject significant evidence in favor of our innate sense of intuition—because intuition has so often favored the survival of our ancestors.

Another analogy might be illustrative: Some students learn language as if it is a set of mathematical equivalences: Word X in Language A equals Word Y in Language B. (Roughly equals is often more accurate.) Of course, equivalence is what vocabulary flashcards imply but it is only a starting point which must soon be expanded or else the student will never grasp the complexities and nuances of communicating in the new language. Furthermore, one must not just try to speak like a native speaker of that language, one must learn to think like a native speaker of that language. Likewise, as Dr. Swamidass noted, biologists and chemists tend to think in different ways as they work in their respective fields.

2 Likes

I will confess very little sympathy. He can’t read a book or a scientific paper? Part of the training of a scientist is supposed to be the ability to gain knowledge from the literature. A brilliant scientist ought at least to be able to locate and read Futuyma, for a start.

1 Like

From James M Tour Group » Evolution/Creation.

I wrote, “Those who think scientists understand the issues of prebiotic chemistry are wholly misinformed. Nobody understands them. Maybe one day we will. But that day is far from today. It would be far more helpful (and hopeful) to expose students to the massive gaps in our understanding. They may find a firmer—and possibly a radically different—scientific theory. The basis upon which we as scientists are relying is so shaky that we must openly state the situation for what it is: it is a mystery.”

Maybe part of the problem is sloppy writing, but I find this particular sentence to be at once arrogant, condescending, and laden with ignorance. This is not a good combination. And it especially a very poor basis for Tour’s arguments against abiogenesis, that the ID community has embraced. (To the point that Tour is featured at an upcoming DI-sponsored event.)

4 Likes

https://youtu.be/zU7Lww-sBPg

2 Likes

I just finished the video. I’ve not seen Tour speak before, he is a good speaker. He is engaging and funny, and I can see why audiences would like him.

As a chemist, I can certainly appreciate his arguments. I have been in synthetic organic group meetings with PhD chemists trying to make molecular motors, it is very much as Tour describes. I saw his argument as a call for intellectual humility and more specific and circumspect language when describing Origin of Life research. It wasn’t that the OoL science was wrong, but rather that its significance and applicability to natural systems was significantly less than “advertised”. It’s a critique of confidence, not the development of anything new, from what I could tell.

What I don’t know, is if any of this is more than a very good synthetic organic chemist’s take on the complexity of the OoL problem. Is Tour trying to present a “defeater” of abiogenesis or just expounding on the complexity of the problem? Do biologists recognize and acknowledge his (to me seemingly straightforward and non-controversial) arguments, and if so, how do they respond? I know there are a few Tour threads here so I’ll dig around those for a while.

It seems like a common theme in many discussions around ID/OoL/evolution involve some discussion of the applicability or relevance of lab experiments to natural systems, and specifically their origins. I think that discussion is an interesting one from a philosophy of science perspective.

2 Likes

I think that Tour might overstate his case at times, but he is largely just calling for reduced confidence, and emphasizing the difficulty of the problem.

I observe his nuances are not picked up by most of the IDists who lionize him.

2 Likes

Thanks for sharing, this is good. OoL seems to be the Achilles Heal for evolution and seems like he does a decent job of explaining the current state of a few aspects of this to laypeople.

The common argument here, one that Reasons to Believe uses, is that very smart people have been at this for 50+ years, and each year they come together, seemingly depressed about how far away they still are from figuring any of this out.

I especially liked the proto-turkey and corvette examples. :slight_smile:

Not really, research only really began in earnest 30 years ago or so, and among researchers in the field that I’ve communicated with (including one of the “giants”) there is a general optimism that we will have a good grasp on the subject within the next 50 years. It shouldn’t be overlooked how much progress has been made since the inception of the field a few decades ago.
For those interested, here’s a recent open-access review just focused on the chemical origins of the building blocks of life, note that essentially all this knowledge has come in the the last few decades:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1674987117301305

2 Likes

Aren’t they different things though? Evolution would only really kick in once you have reproducing cells? It isn’t really a theory of the origin of life.

3 Likes

That seems very optimistic, which is fine unless it’s a promise. It seems to me the field is still trying to find the scope of work and “when will we know when we’re done” a bit, from what Tour is describing (even if I take him with a grain of salt).

3 Likes

Like it or not, seems many critics start the clock at Stanley Miller in 1952. But even if you say 30 years, critics will argue there’s not been much progress. Reasons to Believe points to the overall mood of the annual Origins of Life conference, have you ever attended this conference? Wondering of other can comment on the year to year progress/mood of the attendees.

OoL might (or might not) be the Achilles heel of a fully naturalistic account of life, but it has little to do with evolution itself. I study some aspects of evolution and have used other aspects repeatedly, and OoL doesn’t have even a hint of relevance to anything I’ve worked on.

4 Likes

Not to my mind. They are presented in textbooks and mainstream science as different stages of the same ongoing natural, unguided physical process.

Would you agree that it is sometimes embarrassing to read the description of the origin of life in high school biology textbooks?
Esp. if you go back to the textbooks used in the Boomer and Gen X generations (these are the generations sitting in churches every week) with the “primordial soup” and then “presto!”

But even my son’s current AP Biology textbook (holding it in my hand) includes a whole section on abiogenesis and similar experiments to the ones mentioned in Tour’s talk (section on Stanley Miller as well). It’s all presented as fact without any caveats or cautions and it’s part of the section on the evolution of life.

If they were different things, why do early chapters usually start with OoL? Actually it’s made to seem fundemental to the evolution of life, like the Big Bang is to the evolution of the universe.

My impression is that some biologists started their journey into faith by reading these types of descriptions of OoL. Sems like it made them question the whole thing.

Sure, lots of great science can be done without ever needing to evoke or rely upon either OoL or the Big Bang, and no one would usually care about your views on these events.

However, as has been said many times on this forum, it often comes down to trust, it seems to me. If someone seems to wildly overstate what we know and can confidently know about OoL in order to defend other aspects of eveolutionary theory, he/she may lose some credibility on the other aspects.

If the goal is to distance evolution from abiogenesis, doesn’t seem like it’s working to me.

Understood, but read my reply to Jordan.