Ken Ham and the GAE

[Ashwin_s]

@swamidass

I know it seems picky, but he has a point. Part of the reason I’ve been able to convince secular scientists is that I understand the point he is making, and I have been very careful in following those rules too

Ya I got it. My problem is with the claim that

@Ashwin_s

I’d say the cnsensus of the scientific community would likely be that de novo creation of organisms does not happen

Claiming De Novo creation does not happen is not a scientific opinion. It’s a theological one. In this case, I will acknowledge with @John_Harshman that most Scientists don’t hold to worldview where miracles happen (including De Novo creation). But I am not going to call such a world view Scientific Consensus… Maybe it’s a consensus theology for Scientists.

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

I would actually say the consensus is that evolution disproves de novo creation, but the consensus understanding is mistaken.

However, I’ve made a successful argument that this is not the case in a particular scenario, the one-off-creation of a couple within a larger population. In this case, we don’t have evidence one way or another. As this becomes more known, such as through my book, it is likely to change the consensus. That is why it is critical for us to be disciplined in how we explain it.

If any dumb argument latches on to this winning argument, we are going to loose a clear opportunity to change the consensus. That is part of the reason why it is important to distinguish it from ID’s bad arguments.

[gbrooks9 (GeorgeB)]

@Intjer

There are churches that might be more receptive to GAE if they don’t have a history of Dispensationalism that would be an additional motivation to stay Young Earth - I think conservative Reformed churches and conservative Lutheran churches, and I’m sure others. But if the pastor talks a lot about timelines and “Bible prophecy,” there will probably be objection to the earth being old.

@Intjer

A fairly reasonable assessment ! …

[gbrooks9 (GeorgeB)]

@Ashwin_s

Claiming De Novo creation does not happen is not a scientific opinion. It’s a theological one. In this case, I will acknowledge with @John_Harshman that most Scientists don’t hold to worldview where miracles happen (including De Novo creation). But I am not going to call such a world view Scientific Consensus… Maybe it’s a consensus theology for Scientists.

@Ashwin_s,

I think the Scientists would jeer you off the stage.
Your view reminds me of a text I received just today:

Someone asked me about my denomination… and I explained that I was Unitarian Universalist. And the response was something like this: “ahhh… you are the folks that say you don’t have a credo… which is in fact, your credo!”

My answer was: "Yes, I suppose we could say it the way you are saying it…
but if you are trying to say:

“UU’s are just like all the other denominations… they too have a credo” … that summation is certainly less true than the original stance:

“UUs are not like most of the other denominations… they don’t have a credo”.

@Ashwin_s:
Saying that Scientists have a theology by insisting that the position of rejecting theology is still theology is just a little too disingenuous for my liking - - or for your own good.

How are you going to garner any credibility by playing these word games with definitions?

If someone rejects “all theology”… you are going to have to come to terms with that, honestly and fairly. You can’t shout down:

“Scientists-Without-Theology”
by insisting that such scientists are the same as
“Everybody-Else-Who-Does-Not-Reject-Theology”.

[gbrooks9 (GeorgeB)]

@Ashwin_s

I said GAE is a theological hypothesis which does not contradict science.

I contrast your statement quoted right here with the more general statement that

“Scientists-without-Theology”

are really just

“Scientists-with-a-Theology”.

In contrast to your incorrect sweeping generality … I agree with you that “Genealogical Adam/Eve” is a theological hypothesis that doesn’t contradict science.

Similarly, believing that Jesus was born God must be a theological position… it’s about God.

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

@T_aquaticus

How do students respond? When you show them the contradictions, they immediately see it. They often volunteer they have often wondered about people outside the garden too, and they are really interested to explore that mystery.

A curious audience lacking the ingrained biases of adulthood is a glorious thing.

The beauty of it is that even their parents are curious. It is really fun to watch the switch from defensiveness to open curiosity. It really is like a switch. You can see people flipping it, and the demeanor changes in seconds. Beautiful.