Just what the fork definition of random are you operating with here, and who has ever said evolution is random in that mysterious way you think it has to be?
In the short term, that is exactly what happens. This is why you get such large variance in Luria and Delbruckās fluctuation experiment:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c12b/57ab54094ab5ebf9f78e8f34c5c99ecbf1b1.pdf
Read section 0.2 in the article above. You will see that random mutations should return large variances in the number of mutants in their experiment, and it does.
Using the numbers you gave in the quote above I can also calculate a ratio and average rate.
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Donāt bother making such vague comments. If you want to ask a question, ask it.
No that would be meaningless. Question: why should these bacteria mutate as resistant at all?
Wtf am I reading?
The average height of an American man is 177cm. āWow, such a precise number, it must be directed!ā
I am not sure they are saying what you think they are saying.
Because mutations inevitably happen, and those mutations can have phenotypic effects? How are you confused by this?
Perhaps meaningless to you, but not to biologists.
Bacteria that produce random mutations are able to adapt to new conditions while those that donāt mutate go extinct when their environment changes. Having proteins that randomly mutate DNA is beneficial in the long term.
One of the cooler experiments I have seen changed the size of the DNA bases by chemically modifying them. As the bases grew larger the polymerases created fewer and fewer mutations until the bases were too large to fit into the active site of the polymerase. This means DNA bases fit loosely into the active site of polymerases resulting in the wrong base being randomly inserted into an extending DNA molecule. You can read the paper here:
Confused? Not at all.
Changing the subject will not make your point. 2.0 in the original paper does not back up your original claim.
I wonder how deep we have to go here for this discussion to meet any common ground.
r_speir:
Do you agree atoms exist? Molecules? They have physical and chemical attributes?
Do you agree that DNA exists?
Do you agree that genotype has phenotypic consequences? As in, do you agree that the sequence of DNA affects the phenotypic attributes of the organism?
Do you agree that DNA mutations occur? As in, do you agree that the DNA sequence some times mutates?
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I must admit that mutation rate numerology is a novel development within creationism that I did not see coming.
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They are saying that due to the randomness of mutations they will occur in a random generation. If the mutation happens in an early generation then the culture will have many resistant mutants. If the mutation happens in a late generation then there will be just a few resistant mutants. In other cultures the mutation doesnāt happen at all. That is what causes the variation between the number of mutants in each parallel culture, and it fits perfectly with your description of randomness.
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Answering a question you asked is not changing the subject. If you think his citation was wrong then explain why, donāt just assert it!
Iām sorry to keep butting in and replying to comments directed at you @T_aquaticus, but this is incredibly frustrating to read.
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Insert glutes wherever you deem it appropriate.
If nothing else, perhaps we could discuss the two classic mutation experiments with @r_speir: the fluctuation experiment and the plate replica experiment. I have always found these to be education, even for spectators.
Our discussion found that phage T-1 and a certain antibiotic found resistant mutations after replication. Why these and only these? Is it because our discussion is limited by our knowledge?
For the same reason that metal detectors only find metal. Their experiments were designed to only find those mutations. If they changed the conditions of the experiments they could detect mutations elsewhere in the genome.
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@r_speir, please consider your audience. You are not conversing with John Doe on the street corner, but individuals that have spent years to decades working in their respective fields and really do know what is going on. You have an opportunity to learn here, if you would realize it. Instead, you are assuming that your intuition gives you greater knowledge of biological processes than years of education and research experience. You are in a community of experts that contribute their free time and could teach you a great deal should you choose to learn rather than to stubbornly argue.
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Why donāt you just answer my questions? If we are to make any sense between us, it would help a lot if we could try to pinpoint exactly where our understanding of the facts start to diverge. I sense it happens somewhere between DNA exists, and DNA mutations have phenotypic effects. But Iām not sure exactly where, or why, and Iād like to find out. Can we do that together?
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