I don’t agree with your admission because deep time is not evidence of anything. It’s an interpretation of evidence. But if somehow deep time were confirmed, that would disconfirm GE, at least as Sanford has understood it. Conversely, if GE is confirmed, that would disconfirm deep time.
Deep time was confirmed over two centuries ago by Christian geologists. The amount of evidence for the evolution and diversification of life over the last 3.8 billion years has piled up exponentially since then. It’s not “different interpretation”. It’s scientific fact only denied by those who refuse to accept reality. GE is busted, period.
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Well, then, that’s that. Deep time is as well confirmed as anything can be, so GE is false.
You don’t accept this, of course. Why you don’t is an interesting question, but not one that pertains to the science regarding deep time and GE.
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I’m having trouble finding what I’m looking for in this paper (or rather, what I asked for). I see some comparisons of different models, but I’m looking for the actual DFE chart with (s) graphed on the X axis.
I never said it was. I summarized the evidence for deep time. Did you notice it? Yes, deep time is an interpretation of evidence, as is all of science. The question is whether there is a credible alternative interpretation. There is not. Therefore, deep time; deep time is confirmed. Therefore, as you have agreed, no GE.
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If it is true that Sanford does not think Genetic Entropy is compatible with deep time, that would be news. It would indeed crush his argument, because he’d have to deal with a mountain of evidence he entirely ignores.
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I posted a link above where Sanford testified under oath he thinks the Earth is less than 100,000 years old and probably less than 10,000 years. That’s pretty clear evidence Sanford already ignores the mountain of evidence for deep time.
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His personal beliefs on the age of the earth are not relevant here. We are talking about the relationship between ideas.
This is why I asked (and was never answered) the question “What is the oldest that life could be and still be compatible with GE?” I really can’t see even 100,000 years fitting as an answer to that. Surely everything should be extinct by now if it were that old. Fruit flies and mice can only last so long if there’s noticeable (supposedly) decay in humans. But to be sure we really do need an answer to that question from Sanford or, failing that, at least from @PDPrice.
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No. There is no logical link between GE and deep time. But there is one with the primary axiom ¶
Indeed, it is not GE therefore young earth, or deep time therefore no GE but rather GE therefore no PA, or PA therefore no GE.
Of course they’re relevant since they form the basis for his whole GE thesis. How could they not be? GE was dreamed up solely to support a literal Genesis / YEC position.
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@PDPrice has disagreed. Whatever do you mean by “primary axiom”? Could you be slightly more forthcoming on your meaning?
Bold emphasis mine…
the Biblical data strongly indicates that the emerging scientific evidences of genetic degeneration in man are correct, and that genetic entropy is very real. Genetic entropy is the antithesis of evolution and powerfully speaks of the Biblical Fall.
…
…
4. The drastic decline in longevity began very specifically at the time of the Flood. This strongly
supports the reality of a supernatural, cataclysmic world-changing flood, not an ordinary or local
flood.
5. Since the genealogies and longevity data are tightly linked, the validation of the longevity data
strongly supports the genealogy data (i.e., time from father to son, with no major gaps, etc.), so
we can reasonably infer that Adam and Eve lived in the relatively recent past.
6. The declining longevities strongly indicate that evolution is going the wrong way, and that the
evolutionary timeline is not viable.
Sanford, Pamplin & Rupe - Genetic Entropy, Recorded in the Bible?
Genetic entropy is a dream for YEC because 1) it is not a defensive position like the old thermodynamics anti-evolution arguments. GE does not merely assert, evolution increases order and is therefore impossible; it says that evolution is so wrong that it has it exactly backwards, we are in fact decayed and devolved shadows of a once absolutely fit, pristine creation, and it is getting worse with extinction looming should there be no apocalyptic intervention. 2) The YEC chronology is affirmed, and GE is true and is incompatible with deep time, because if we are on the cusp after six thousand years, we would be long gone given evolutionary time scales.
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So genetic entropy (if one is convinced it is a thing) refutes an old Earth and the mainstream consensus on fossil distribution and geology. Or…
I’ll go with “Or”.
Indeed!
He acknowledges that GE is incompatible with deep time in his book.
His argument has nothing to do with the alleged evidence for deep time, which is why he doesn’t attempt to deal with that (others have). The interpretation of deep time is made via uniformitarian assumptions–assumptions that biblical history would largely invalidate. If GE is a valid observation, it seriously calls into question these other interpretations of deep time, independently.
John Sanford defines ‘The Primary Axiom’ as ‘man is merely the product of random mutations plus natural selection
How is that relevant to the conflict between GE and deep time?
Sure, but that just means that he ignores an issue. When he acknowledges that the two are incompatible, that means evidence of deep time is evidence against GE. That’s what “incompatible” means.
If. Evidence for deep time is evidence that GE is not a valid observation.
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Doesn’t the conflict go away if you allow for God’s guidance?
Depends on how many miracles you are willing to accept. If God acts so as to prevent a natural process from happening throughout earth history up until very recently, when he apparently allows it for one strain of flu virus and humans, and possibly for everything, then sure. But does that make any sense? Three plus billion years of carefully tailoring each and every nearly neutral mutation in order to prevent collapse, out the window 4000 years ago?
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