R_speir and the People Outside the Garden

Of course I am voting for @structureoftruth’s argument. It is plausible (if God exists as we both believe) and it is consistent with Scripture. It does not rule out your reading, but he is not trying to rule out your reading. He is just arguing that this is an alternate reading consistent with Scripture, and it is. In fact, he did not even invent this reading, it is part of the Genesis tradition.

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With due respect, that is not what I think we all heard you say.

Well, that’s what I meant, and I’ve clarified it now.

Thank you for clarifying. I could not believe that you would think God had dealings with “those outside the Garden” as @structureoftruth believes. Thanks again.

If people outside the Garden existed, God created them too, and he certainly could have dealings with them.

If people on other planets exist, God created them too, and he certainly could have dealings with them.

No difference.


I will not be the only one surprised by this statement.

Have you read what @jongarvey has written about this? Religion before Adam | The Hump of the Camel

Have you read what CS Lewis has written about this? Scientific Integrity: Religion and Rocketry, by C.S. Lewis


He’s right on at least one count: you don’t have an argument.

So according to your paradigm you have characters outside the Garden arising through a lineage of brute beasts who have learned some semblance of civil behavior through evolutionary natural selection (for instance, “Don’t kill unless you want to be killed”) and helped along by Jon Garvey’s “God-consciousness” in the race (a notion echoed by J. Swamidass).

But Cain still fears for his life. Since you refuse the fugitive scenario (which is actually the plain reading of the text), Cain must see your supposed benign characters outside the Garden still as brute beasts, ready to take his life when they find him. And remember, you have actually argued for the same, and thus have agreed with Cain here. So then, you countermand your argument and display confusion.

Are those outside the Garden, 1. civil co-inhabitants of the plains regions with a God-consciousness, or, 2. brute beasts whom Cain should legitimately fear?

I do not think they were brute beasts, and I believe God created them. I also am sticking with a plain reading here and not countermanding Scripture in any way.

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I’m sorry but that does not scan. Then you must believe those outside the Garden are civil co-inhabitants of the plains regions with a God-consciousness, and thus, Cain has nothing to fear. If you come back with, “But their God-consciousness will inform their morality and social justice to seek him out and kill him,” then you have adopted the fugitive scenario, which you and those here have already rejected.

I sense that you are not really engaged in this argument. You seem casual in your approach. Too, those who have already argued here are not only contradicting each other, but now also contradicting your current views.

I believe there is a real problem here in that this passage has been mined far too long in support of a race of humans (or whatever) outside the Garden. I have brought up some real problems and inconsistencies with that old view that I believe need a fresh and unbiased revisit.

But it is clear you are not in the mood and others here are unable or unwilling to consider the good points I am making. For those reasons, I am ready to disengage. Thanks for your time.

I actually think that the points you have brought up have merit. I just do not believe they are as definitive and final as you make them out to be. There is not really a lot to go on, and founding a city without even the help of your estranged family to populate it, a la Robinson Crusoe, does seem rather odd.


Sometimes it’s best to walk away and let the chips fall where they may. Others will either accept your conclusions or not. Personally, I don’t see anything else you can really add to what you’ve already said. I know what you believe and I’ve certainly seen enough to reach my own conclusions.