Sal Cordova and Aging Galaxies

Here is an interesting paper on quasars:

Physical Origins for Variations in the Apparent Positions of Quasars

Abstract—The physical origins of the apparent motion of radio sources in the ICRF are considered. The sources can be divided into four groups, according to the characteristics of their motion. Here, we consider the model for the motion of the first group of sources—those displaying uniform linear motion. Since the
apparent speeds of the radio sources are close to, and sometimes exceeding, the speed of light, it is natural to suppose that these sources are relativistic jets or plasma clouds moving with speeds close to the speed of light.

It has been demonstrated that extragalactic radio sources are not stationary on the celestial sphere, and we have shown that this motion can be explained as
a consequence of precessional motion of the quasar jets. For most reasonable estimates of the precessional speed, the core of the radio source should display linear motion over several hundreds of years.

That said, “the precessional motion” is like waving a flash light. The position of the light spot can move apparently faster than the speed of light, but it is an illusion! But, there is still some problem in having a plasma jet moving close to the speed of light.

OR, maybe redshift doesn’t indicate distance for Quasars. Or as Varshni suggested they aren’t redshifted at all.

When a police radar gun sense a shift when aiming the radar gun at a car, the characteristics of the signal being sent out are well known and can be compared accurately with the signal being received after it is bounced of the target car, and thus inference of shifting is quite valid, and the officer will rightly issue a ticket to the car driver for speeding if the speed limit is violated.

The problem with stellar signals is we actually are guessing what the original signal is and then estimating how much it is shifted. Varshni argues, in the absence of having the reference source signal in hand to make a redshift determination, there is room for misinterpretation! Added to that, if there is lasing action in the plasmas, this adds even more room for misinterpretation.

We really don’t know enough. It’s still early in the game to be making final pronouncements about much of anything in cosmology.

The above and your inference below of a static universe are highly problematic. Give me something - anything - to go on. Offer some kind of plausible idea about how starlight has arrived at our location within 6500 years. I hope I am not putting you on the spot.

I don’t have one, we have to wait on the Lord to find out how. 9 of the 10, if not 10 of the 10 YEC/YCC cosmologies are wrong. No one knows how. Only God, for now, and He will reveal it if He chooses.

Do you have these readily available?

Please see my challenge to Hartnett here

http://www.setterfield.org/Challenge_to_Hartnett.html

See my challenge to Humphreys here

They refused to publish my challenge to Lisle so I published here

Needless to say, I am hard to convince when it comes to YEC cosmologies. Again, what are the others you refer to?

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Do you believe that red giants, white dwarfs, neutron stars, and black holes were created that way rather than being the results of the aging of former main sequence stars?

Do you believe that red giants, white dwarfs, neutron stars, and black holes were created that way rather than being the results of the aging of former main sequence stars?

Yes, except black holes. I’m skeptical of black holes, even though they are a “solution” to the Einstein field equations, here are some of my thoughts, in 2005. I don’t know if the researcher I cited has changed his mind:

https://uncommondescent.com/physics/black-holes-do-not-exist/

I see you were invited by Barry Setterfield. Barry was a dear friend, and I still regard him as such, but I can’t agree with his cosmology anymore. His c-decay was one of the 10 cosmologies:

Admitting significant errors in my understanding of physics — speed of light theories | Uncommon Descent

I had advocated Barry Setterfield’s decaying speed of light model as a possible mechanism for seeing distant starlight on shorter time scales than billions of years. At this time I need to appraise those who have followed my defense of Barry’s theory, that I no longer think Setterfield’s versions of the c-decay are workable as stated.

Although we still have potentially anomalous data points in the measurement of the speed of light that could argue for a universal, isotropic decaying speed of light (as reported in Nature ), and even though Joao Magueijo, John Barrow, Paul Davies have argued for the possibility that the speed of light was universally faster in the past, I have not been able to resolve difficulties in Setterfield’s c-decay model.

Changing of the speed of light and attendant changes in other constants (like Plank’s constant) can lead to insurmountable problems. However, this does not preclude other mechanisms for seeing distant starlight in a short amount of time.

Independent of theology, there are empirical reasons we might think distant starlight reaches us quickly as I stated in this discussion Distant Starlight, the thorn in the side of YEC and there are theoretical reasons for the desirability of varying speed of light to solve problems which inflation cosmology cannot solve.

To that end I’d like to point out that I concurred with Dr. Jerry Jellison and WT Brigman that they had uncovered errors in Setterfield’s work, and I conveyed my criticism to Barry Setterfield. Barry is a good friend, and I’m sorry I must disagree with my good friend.

Below is Jellison and Bridgman’s essay on Setterfield’s work 2007.

Analysis of the Variable Lightspeed (c-Decay) Theory of Barry Setterfield

I’m only posting it now because I needed a few years and a lot of study in physics to think on the matter. Here are some relevant highlight from Jellison and Bridgman:

The precise nature of the error was communicated to him [Setterfield], and an Excel spreadsheet verifying the error was posted on the website by Cordova. Setterfield’s response was that “software packages” often fail to “pick up on” certain algebraic identities, and that this was undoubtedly the case here. He also claimed to have re-checked his derivation, and verified that it was correct. However, Cordova expressed the opinion that there really was a problem. At this point, after about a month of arguing the matter, Setterfield acknowledged the error.

The decision to write this report was occasioned by Salvador Cordova’s expressed willingness to post it on his creationist web site. Mr. Cordova carried through on his promise and, in so doing, exposed Setterfield’s theory to what may be its most intense scientific criticism. Although we do not endorse the content of many of Cordova’s posts on the youngcosmos.com discussion forum and blog, we do acknowledge his willingness to side with us against Setterfield when he saw the correctness of our arguments. In addition, we acknowledge the role the youngcosmos.com discussions had in our developing understanding of the weaknesses of the c-decay theory.

One of the things about cosmology is that you technically can’t falsify any model where God supernaturally makes galaxies to look as if they’ve undergone billions of years worth of star formation and death. There were three classic ways of determining the ages of things in the universe with radiometric dating, white dwarf cooling time, and main sequence turnoff points.
@John_Harshman asked:

And @stcordova replied:

This discussion can never go anywhere because @stcordova just believes that globular clusters like this were created to look as if they’ve undergone millions to billions of years worth of cosmic evolution:

There are of course many more methods of measuring ages of things in the universe, like gyrochronology, but again this is easily accommodated in a young universe because God made the whole universe with appearance of age.

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Isn’t that omphalism?

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Off the top of my head.

  1. The worst one is “God made it look old and created the light enroute.” Even Answers in Genesis cringes at this one, but it was one Duane Gish at the ICR promoted. Gish protested to me personally once in e-mail that I didn’t like his model. I gave him a cordial “thank you” for contacting me, and thanked him for all he had done for YEC/YCC. He died shortly thereafter writing me. God rest his soul.

  2. Barry Setterfield’s C-dcay. My primary complaint is tinkering with planck’s constant as part of c-decay! YIKES! Messing with a fundamental constant of Quantum Mechanics will blow up chemistry in short order. Not good, imho.

  3. Bill Lucas alternative electrodynamics. I met him twice. I could get straight answer from him. Nice guy. When he cited lutec perpetual motion machines as evidence of his theory I gave up. Hartnett and Faulkner challenged him at ICC 2008. Faulkner turned red and was practically screaming at him. I thought that was unbecoming. Hartnett was pretty harsh too over Lucas’ views of QM and the photoelectric effect. The YEC community has pretty much forgotten Dr. Lucas. Dr. Lucas at least had a testable model for alternative electro dynamics.

  4. Humphrey’s Starlight and Time version 1.0, white hole cosmology 1.0. Humprey’s has since retracted 1.0. I don’t know what version is the latest.

  5. Humpreys white hole 2.0 or above.

  6. Hartnett-Carmeli 5-dimensional cosmology. Hartnett has since withdrawn it. I thought it was an ugly framing of General Relativity. So it fails the elegance test, and since Hartnett himself rejected the model, I will too. Dr. Hartnett invited me at ICC 2008 to be his PhD student in Austrailia. I couldn’t make it happen. I went to Johns Hopkins and the NIH FAES grad school instead and worked for John Sanford in Bio physics. I at least go to do some trivial amounts of physics mixed in with biology.

  7. Jason Lisle ASC model, one way speed of light.

  8. Mark Amunrud ICC 2013 model. I think Mark gave up on it.

  9. PW. Dennis stitch GR solutions together model –

http://creationicc.org/2018_papers/06%20Dennis%20cosmology%20final.pdf

This was actually put together by a distinguished NASA GR physicist in Dennis:

ABSTRACT
We present a young earth creationist (YEC) model of creation that is consistent with distant light from distant objects in the cosmos. We discuss the reality of time from theological/philosophical foundations. This results in the rejection of the idealist viewpoint of relativity and the recognition of the reality of the flow of time and the existence of a single cosmological “now.” We begin the construction of the YEC cosmology with an examination of the “chronological enigmas” of the inhomogeneous solutions of the Einstein field equations (EFE) of General Relativity (GR). For this analysis we construct an inhomogeneous model by way of the topological method of constructing solutions of the EFE. The topological method uses the local (tensorial) feature of solutions of the EFE that imply that if (M g, ) is a solution then removing any closed subset X of M is also a solution on the manifold with M MX A = − and the restriction A M A g g = . Also, if (M g A A , ) and (M g B B , ) are solutions of the EFE in disjoint regions then the “stitching” together of (M g A A , ) and (M g B B , ) with continuous boundary conditions is also a solution. From this we show conceptually how an approximate “crude” model with a young earth neighborhood and an older remote universe can be constructed. This approximate “crude” model suffers from having abrupt boundaries. This model is an example of a spherically symmetric inhomogeneous space-time. We discuss the class of exact spherically symmetric inhomogeneous universes represented by the Lemaître-Tolman (L-T) class of exact solutions of the EFE. A more realistic model refines this technique by excising a past subset with an asymptotically null spacelike surface from the Friedmann-LemaîtreRobertson-Walker (FLRW) cosmology. We build the model from the closed FLRW solution by selecting a spacelike hyperboloidal surface as the initial surface at the beginning of the first day of creation. This surface induces, by way of embedding into FLRW space-time, an isotropic but radially inhomogeneous matter density consistent with the full FLRW space-time. The resulting space-time is a subset of the usual FLRW space-time and thus preserves the FLRW causal structure and the observational predictions such as the Hubble law. We show that the initial spacelike surface evolves in a consistent manner and that light from the distant “ancient” galaxies arrives at the earth within the creation week and thereafter. All properties of light arriving from distant galaxies retain the same features as those of the FLRW space-time. This follows from the fact that the solution presented is an open subset of the FLRW space-time so that all differential properties and analysis that applies to FLRW also applies to our solution. Qualitatively these models solve the distant star light problem and from a theological point of view, in which God advances the (cosmic) time of the spacelike hypersurfaces at a non-uniform rate during the miraculous creation week, solve the distant light problem. We conclude by briefly discussing possible objections of some of our key assumptions and showing that a relativist cannot consistently object to our assumptions based on the merely operationalist point of view that an absolute spacelike “now” cannot be empirically determined.

I had the honor of talking to Dr. Dennis. Though I am skeptical of the FLRW metric, everyone in the room that had some General Relativity education (myself included) thought he represented himself exceptionally well and collectively we wanted to study GR under him!

  1. Tichomir Tenev. MIT math graduate. Very smart. I met him at ICC 2018:

"Creation time coordinates solution to the starlight problem" by Tichomir G. Tenev, John Baumgardner et al.
Abstract
We present a solution for the distant starlight problem that is consistent with Scripture, Special Relativity, and observations of a young cosmos that is based on a special divine choice of initial conditions and a new synchrony convention. The initial conditions constrain the spacetime coordinates of all stellar creation events (Genesis 1:17) to be just outside the past light cone of Earth’s Day Four but within the past light cone of Earth’s Day Five while also being causally independent from one another. The synchrony convention interprets God’s numbering of the creation days in Genesis 1 as prescribing a time coordinate for each location in the cosmos, a coordinate we call the Creation Time Coordinate (CTC). The CTC at a given star is defined as the elapsed time since that star was created plus three days. Two events are considered simultaneous (synchronous), if and only if, they have the same CTCs. We show that for these initial conditions and synchrony convention, starlight emitted on Day Four (stellar CTC) arrives at Earth also on Day Four (Earth CTC). Our solution is a reformulation of Lisle’s solution (Newton 2001, Lisle 2010), but ours spells out the required initial conditions, without which Lisle’s solution is ambiguous. It also replaces Lisle’s use of the Anisotropic Synchrony Convention, which is an observer-specific subjective definition of simultaneity, with the CTC synchrony convention, which is a divinely-prescribed objective definition of simultaneity. Our solution predicts that stellar objects should appear youthful, because the light we receive from them displays them at only a few thousand years after their creation. We show for our own galaxy the number of observed supernova remnants and observed supernova frequency support this prediction. Finally, we discuss the strong agreement among current creationist cosmologies regarding spacetime coordinates of stellar creation events relative to the creation of the Earth itself.

Amazingly, Tenev himself really liked PW Dennis solution also, which also suggest some rejection of his own model, I think, I don’t know.

  1. Bryan Johnson, PhD from Illinois, Urbana Champaigne. I wanted to go there, but couldn’t. His bio is respectable:

"Young universe cosmology" by Bryan M. Johnson
Bryan obtained a bachelor’s degree in Electrical Engineering from LeTourneau University in 1996 and worked for 3.5 years at Northrop Grumman as a Systems Engineer before going to graduate school. He received a Ph.D. in theoretical astrophysics from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign in 2005, spent two years as a post-doc in the Astronomy Department at the University of California at Berkeley, and has been a staff scientist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory since 2007. He is married with 7 children, currently resides in Livermore, CA, and attends Trinity Church East Bay.

Abstract

Distant starlight is one of the most challenging natural phenomena to reconcile with a recent creation. Most creationist cosmologies attempt to address this apparent contradiction between God’s two books by appealing to the flexibility associated with our definition of time (Hartnett 2007; Humphreys 2008; Lisle 2010). In their current formulation, these cosmologies allow for long cosmological times periods while preserving short time periods on earth (they can thus be viewed as young earth but old universe cosmologies). Assuming that astronomical distance measurements are accurate, a consistent young universe cosmology would appear to require either some form of mature creation (i.e., local generation of starlight that is only apparently distant) or a variation in the speed of light. There is a vast literature on a variable speed of light (both creationist and non-creationist), often accompanied by a fair bit of controversy and misunderstanding. Creationist explorations have relied on suspect extrapolations of uncertain historical measurements to argue for a speed of light that has decreased since the time of Creation (Setterfield 1987). However, a speed of light that varies with gravity stands on much firmer theoretical footing. In particular, there is a direct mathematical analogy between weak-field gravity and a varying speed of light (Barceló et al. 2011). This paper will explore some of the implications associated with assuming that this analogy represents an underlying physical reality. One implication of this picture is that cosmological redshifts are due to a spatial variation in the speed of light (Dicke 1957) rather than to the expansion of space, although in principle both physical effects could be operating in concert. If light propagates faster in regions of space where gravity is weak, the extremely low gravitational potential of cosmological voids may be sufficient to put the entire universe in causal contact with the Earth on the time scale of Biblical history. Attributing cosmological redshifts to a spatial variation in the speed of light alone would obviate the need for dark energy, and a model in which the speed of light increases in the outskirts of galaxies has the potential to explain galactic rotation curves without invoking dark matter or modifying Newtonian dynamics. Finally, the model predicts a redshift evolution for the Tolman surface brightness signal (Hubble and Tolman 1935) that differs from that predicted by an expanding universe model, with the current model being more in line with observations. Not only does this hypothesis provide a straightforward solution to the problem of distant starlight, its connection with gravity also points the way towards the development of a robust and predictive young universe cosmological model.

Johnson, myself, and Tenev discussed and criticized each other’s ideas at ICC 2018. I wrote to him, but haven’t heard back from him.

  1. Cahill neo-Lorentzian model. I tried to build the Cahill interferometer. The Michelson-Morely type interferometers were operated in vacuums except the first one. The Dayton Miller one had atmospheric refraction. Smartly Cahill and Demjanov built alternate interferometers with refarction. I tried to reconstruct Cahill’s simplest one. The result were inconclusive. And Tichomir Tenev rightly pointed out the sensitivity of such an interferometer to even small jarring, which I can confirm. The apparatus, however did connect together correctly and the vendors Cahill specified (like Thor labs) were legit. I briefly got help from a photonics physicist in constructing it.

I wrote Cahill at Flinder’s university personally and pointed out the problems, and he replied by suggesting I construct his newest device which would involve a rather expensive ultra-high end oscilloscope (like $100,000 a piece). A team of engineers with access to such oscilloscopes attempted to duplicate Cahill’s interferometer with negative results, but Peter Morris found alternate evidence of the Cahill’s model, and alternatively Demjanov.

Nevertheless, Cahill gave an excellent analysis of the Dewitte, Miller, Michelson-Morely:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0306196.pdf

As I mentioned in other threads. The Hatch filter in GPS was created by Ron Hatch. GPS won’t work without it. The filter Hatch himself built inspired him to reject Einsteinian relativity in favor of neo-Lorentzian relativity.

just believes that globular clusters like this were created to look as if they’ve undergone millions to billions of years worth of cosmic evolution:

That mis-represents my views. You can of course criticize things I never claimed, but then that’s really having a discussion about my views, but rather a misrepresentation and mischaracterization of what I said.

The problem is one is assuming they evolved. I’m not so sure, stellar evolution is feasible from a mechanical standpoint. Gravity alone isn’t enough I hear from some quarters.

I don’t know.

again this is easily accommodated in a young universe because God made the whole universe with appearance of age.

I’m not arguing appearance of age, I’m suggesting appearance of YOUTH and special creation. If galaxy formation can’t happen with Dark matter, and we can’t prove sufficient amounts of Dark Matter, we don’t even know what it’s made of, this is an appeal to unknown, untested mechanisms. We really don’t know a lot.

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There are other ways, side stepping Sal’s earlier objects to dating estimates, that ties into my question about stellar ages. The Crab Nebula is the remnant of well documented supernova event known to have occurred in 1054 AD. In the time since the shell of expelled gases has expanded and that allows astronomers to measure its speed and distance traveled. This and other observations of supernova remnants allows them to make reasonable estimates for when the supernovas have occurred. Suffice it to say, dates go well beyond 6500 years.

However since this is a discussion about galaxies, there’s this line of evidence: galactic collisions. Here’s a series of various collisions taken by the Hubble space telescope. 'When Galaxies Collide'- 59 New Hubble Images Released

This sure looks like the effects of gravity, doesn’t it? But these events take orders of magnitude longer than 6500 years to complete. That’s a hard argument to swallow to say God created the universe with these galaxies starting off in these positions, no matter how distant they may be.

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I think that is a very solid objection to YEC/YCC.

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I know that most YEC wouldn’t actually frame things that way. For example, this galaxy that has evidence of at least a 400,000 year history that @David_MacMillan has written about:

What are you referring to?

Again I know you wouldn’t phrase things that way, but we can see evidence of things that have undergone very long histories including radioactive dating of clusters and even direct stars.

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Then why do you attribute something to me that you know I didn’t say? I think a retraction on your part is in order. Otherwise, we have no basis of a conversation if you’re going to attribute remarks to me which I didn’t make.

That’s circular reasoning, and we still don’t know all the mechanisms of nucleosynthesis and decay, starting with experiments with Proton-21 lab that has a bearing on those issues.