Scientific evidence for the supernatural

[DaleCutler]

If you don’t believe that any prophecy can be true, that’s what you have to say. I choose to believe Genesis 1:1 (not without reason), and I choose to believe that Luke 21:25 refers to the effects of climate change/global warming – I am not being unreasonable.

A comment that I have posted after news articles on climate change:

Contrary to what Christian climate change deniers in the US appear to believe (not that I believe it is necessarily primarily anthropogenic), it seems that the Bible – and in particular, the Carpenter from Galilee – speaks to climate change. It also seems unlikely that it is going to get better. The “distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves” of Luke 21:25 describes climate change well, with rising sea levels and weather extremes, although he may be referring to tsunamis, or both. Some megacryometeors may be a result of climate change, so it would not be a surprise if they became more frequent (cf. Revelation 16:21). Bloody red algae blooming seas, fires, floods and famines are also mentioned – earthquakes, too. Since big bang cosmology’s telling us that space and time(!) had a beginning fits so nicely with Genesis 1:1, I’m inclined to believe more of the Book as well, and it says we live in a dying world.

Given the brokenness of people (all of us) and the corruption in and the ineptitude of governments – first and third world, it doesn’t seem likely that climate change is fixable, even if it were all anthropogenic. And any global financial, geopolitical or geophysical disaster could effectively scrap any unenforceable political agreements. That does not mean that I am not in favor of greener solutions for energy and cleaner air!

Counterintuitively, perhaps, since many consider the Judeo-Christian God as a vindictive and angry judge, the most frequent mandate in the Bible is “Don’t be afraid” (or one of its several variations, e.g., “Fret not” and “Be anxious for nothing”). That would include not being anxious about politics, climate change and terrorism. Father is in control, like it or not. It would be better to like it. Also counterintuitive, perhaps: he is a loving – and lovable – Father.

[Faizal_Ali]

@Jim

Well, until you or someone else can explain to me why it’s invalid or unwarranted for me to posit a supernatural cause for observations that you yourself acknowledge are beyond or at least hard to be accounted for by present know natural explanations, I believe I am warranted to hold to my claim

So, IOW, until every single scientific question has been fully answered and the entire endeavor of science is permanently shut down, you reserve the right to believe in things for which no evidence exists.

I hope you can see for yourself the flaws in that argument.

[Faizal_Ali]

@DaleCutler

Is the observation of an avalanche subjective? “There was an avalanche.” How subjective is that?

Since avalanches are known physical events, if someone reports he observed an avalanche there is no reason to doubt his testimony, unless there was some vested interest that might motivate him to lie. In which case further objective evidence might be needed.

If someone reported that he saw snow magically run uphill and neatly fall into place at the top of a mountain, like an avalanche running in reverse, this would not be believed based on a single person’s unverified account.

Does that help?

[DaleCutler]

Maybe you missed the point. The events being referred to (e.g., the George Müeller account) do not break natural laws.

(Was “Does that help?” helpful? What do you think.)

[Faizal_Ali]

I guess you missed this part of my comment:

@Faizal_Ali

unless there was some vested interest that might motivate him to lie. In which case further objective evidence might be needed.

We do not believe every single claim every single person ever makes so long as it does not violate natural laws.

[DaleCutler]

@Faizal_Ali

…some vested interest that might motivate him to lie.

As prophesied:

@DaleCutler

(The cynical skeptic, of course, will be generous [and quick] with insults and accusations of lying.)

[Faizal_Ali]

Lying is a possibility. But the main problem is that happy coincidences are not evidence of supernatural forces, even if the story isn’t a lie or a myth.

[DaleCutler]

We are not talking about the occasional coincident. We are talking about independent multiples, groups and series, collectively infused with meaning. They are indeed evidence of one of the Perpetrator’s primary M.O.s. But of course the antitheist has to deny them. She has to, she has no choice.

[Timothy_Horton]

@DaleCutler

Of course. If they match, they fit.

That’s the same M.O. astrology uses to dupe some people into thinking it is real. Make vague “predictions” with virtually zero details and trust people who want to believe will twist their observations to fit the “prediction”. Cold reader con men use the same trick.

[DaleCutler]

Hi, Tim.

[Timothy_Horton]

Hi Dale.

[DaleCutler]

There are other reasons to believe the Bible, starting with Genesis 1:1.

[Timothy_Horton]

@DaleCutler

There are other reasons to believe the Bible, starting with Genesis 1:1

Back to arguing the Bible is a science textbook now are we?

[DaleCutler]

This part of ‘we’ haven’t. You’ve been misreading. But legitimate correlations are legitimate correlations. I can’t help it if your worldview disallows them.

[Timothy_Horton]

@DaleCutler

But legitimate correlations are legitimate correlations.

People who believe in astrology say that too.

[DaleCutler]

Yes, they do. Your argument would be called a straw man fallacy, I believe. A very nice example, I might add. Thank you.

[Roy (30-year veteran)]

@DaleCutler

@Roy

…you’re retrofitting current events to an existing prophecy.

Of course. If they match, they fit.

That’s the problem. They don’t match, but you’re trying to make them fit anyway.

[DaleCutler]

@Roy

They don’t match…

“…nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.” Yeah, that and global warming/climate change is a real force fit.

[Timothy_Horton]

@DaleCutler

“…nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.” Yeah, that and global warming/climate change is a real force fit.

Yeah, it’s a perfect fit.

[Roy (30-year veteran)]

@DaleCutler

@Roy

They don’t match…

“…nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.” Yeah, that and global warming/climate change is a real force fit.

It is a real force fit, since once again you’re quote-mining the bible, ignoring the preceding text including the previous verse. Global warming does not include great earth-quakes, or pestilences, or great signs from heaven. It doesn’t include Jerusalem being surrounded by armies and trampled on. Global warming does not match that passage in Luke because that passage also says “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars.”