Scientism on the PS forum

Well, it does seem to me that personal impressions of one’s personal prior mental states are in a bit of a special category. This is information not accessible, at least with our current understanding of brains, by anyone else, and whatever is not known about it by the individual involved is not known by anyone else, either. I don’t think it falls neatly into categories about our knowledge about facts relating to the world outside of our heads, and it’s really that sort of thing that I’m trying to address: if the claim was only that “revelations” are very real to the person experiencing them, in the same sense that dreams are real, then this might be comparable. But the claim is that “revelations” are a useful way to obtain knowledge about external facts rather than about the details of one’s internal experience.

On that, though, a tale. I remember the day the Challenger blew up. I was at the US Courthouse in Philadelphia, taking depositions in a case where the plaintiff was so weird and menacing that the judge gave us a conference room to do the depositions in (normally these would be done in our offices) so that he’d have to go through the metal detectors to get there. I’d taken a break and gone downstairs, and on my way back up to the deposition someone in the elevator told the others in the elevator that the space shuttle had blown up. I returned to the room where the depositions were being taken, and told the others. This really seared its way into my memory; I remember it. I feel that I know it; this is exactly how it happened.

So it was a bit unsettling to me when one day, years later, I looked up the date of the disaster. Between the date of the disaster and various known dates in the litigation, I am now able to tell you with great certainty that this simply didn’t happen. We weren’t taking those depositions at that time. I have no idea whether some part or other of the tale is true – did I learn of the disaster on an elevator? In the US Courthouse elevator? Was I there for that case, but not for depositions? Or was I not there at all and have garbled this memory with something else entirely? Obviously the answers to these questions aren’t very important, but the fact that I can’t answer any of them is vexing. It wouldn’t be vexing if I had simply FORGOTTEN the event. The problem is that my memory of this event is clear and vivid and yet is plainly, demonstrably wrong. Even now that doesn’t change the fact that I do remember it, in exactly this way.

I can falsify my memory of the event by reference to known external evidence. But internal mental states, though made very much of the same stuff, are not subject to later disconfirmation. The Challenger disaster, together with such things as the work of Elizabeth Loftus, taught me that I can’t trust my own mind to have recorded events correctly.

And here is where good mental habits come into it, I think. My intellect cannot convince my emotions to stop feeling bad about something which I feel bad about. My historical scrutiny of the Challenger episode cannot convince my memory to stop remembering things that didn’t happen. But these different aspects of consciousness each have their own fields of competency. To allow one’s emotions to override one’s intellect in a matter of the heart is perhaps a way to, say, forgiving some offense, and it gives expression to the (I hope!) competence of emotion over intellect in such matters. To allow one’s emotions to override one’s intellect when sitting on a jury (“well, SOMEONE killed that kid, and someone’s got to pay!”), however, would be to allow the incompetent to override the competent. Likewise, I should think, privileging subjective feelings and experiences of a cognitively-questionable nature over the sober weighing of actual evidence, in questions such as whether Baal exists, is also privileging mental processes that are incompetent for the particular job in questions over processes that are competent for that job. Let the emotions rule themselves. Let feeling have its full expression, subject to civilized limits. Let the memory, right or wrong though it may be, construct one’s internal self-history. But when the task is one for the intellect to do, with its particular skills in evaluating questions in the light of evidence and reason, these others have much less, if indeed anything, to contribute.

Indeed not. I recall, back in my teenaged years when I was regularly targeted by pedophiles, preachers and preacher/pedophiles, that I was sitting in the Greyhound bus terminal in Seattle reading the bit from The Brothers Karamazov about the “Grand Inquisitor.” Unfortunately, one of these pedophile/preacher combos sidled up to me, saw what I was reading, and latched on to the religious nature of it. This led to my receiving a very long presentation about all of the statements in the Bible which science had proven to be true in ways which no writer of the time could have foreseen, ergo, proof that the scripture was the product of the hand of Baal (or Slartibartfast? I can’t recall) himself.

Of course, everything this creepy codger told me turned out, when I looked into it, to be a combination of outright lies and exaggerations. On balance, I preferrred being solicited by the straight-up pedophiles; their motives were generally less exploitative and were more honestly expressed, to boot. And, unlike the preachers, they never forced the issue.

I’ve spent a good many hours in the years since then ping-ponging between faithful people who insist that the majesty of Whatzisface The Ineffable is manifest in all things, accessible to all honest inquirers-after-evidence, and could only be denied by the willfully blind, and other faithful people who insist that it is right next-door to blasphemy (667; The Neighbor of The Beast) to suppose that Whatzisface The Ineffable can be experienced other than by faith itself. Whenever I encounter one of either type, I think of that wonderful commercial where the woman at the hotel bar receives a meant-to-be-alluring smile and a room key from one smarmy dude, and then later is confronted by another smarmy dude – to whom she smiles alluringly and hands that room key. I’d love to get these two types, each sliding about in the froth of their own terrible arguments, to argue with one another and leave me the hell out of it; but I suspect that if I did, the pretense would fall away and they’d have no disagreement with each other at all except upon the subject of how to make a sale.

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Those are really awful experiences with horrible people. If my involvement in the conversation has reminded you of these things, then, my bad.

I’m here because the conversation between science and religion sounded like fun. I’ve interacted with you because you’ve responded to my posts and because I enjoy your posts. I haven’t tried to sell anything, rather, I’ve engaged in the conversation at hand, and done so from my perspective.

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Ah, not in the least. And I have appreciated, throughout, your good faith and honest, straightforward presentation of your views. If I’ve given the impression that I don’t appreciate that, my apologies; I do have a wide-ranging style of expression which sometimes may seem more hostile than it is meant to.

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Thank you for reminding me that our memories can be faulty, I had forgotten that :wink:

Nevertheless, warts and all, it should be obvious that we can’t proceed to know anything at all without allowing for a degree of reliability of our memory. Sure, 35 years later, or if we just emptied a couple of bottles of the finest wine we may get it wrong, but if we just made a sober scientific observation and recorded it into our notebook we all assume that we didn’t forget the observation in the time it takes to get the notebook out and write it down. So perhaps the way to approach this is like we do with all scientific measurements - we should apply error bars, with events longer ago having larger error bars than events in the more recent past.

Even with error bars though I still maintain that memories are a form of knowledge, personal knowledge that is subjective and can’t be independently verified or falsified, and not scientific. So if we want to claim that ‘divine revelation’ is not a form of knowledge we need criteria to distinguish it from memories. However, since I never (knowingly… :slight_smile: ) have had a divine revelation I am not best placed to explore that question.

Or we could turn it round: how can we distinguish divine revelation from fantasy?

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I guess my point, which may have lost its way in my wordiness, is that there are internal states we can independently examine such as memories of external events (“what did I eat for breakfast this morning”) and there are internal states we can’t independently examine (“how did I feel about my breakfast this morning?”). Our grasp on the latter is probably pretty good, but a bit tenuous.

But there is a distinction between that and divine revelation. We do know that we objectively exist. That’s the one and only thing which good old unaided reason tells us, “cogito ergo sum.” We know that we can have mental states; we are always in a bit of a dither philosophically about things like the extent to which sense-impressions accurately reflect some external reality and all that, but that we exist and can think is pretty much the ground of all real experience for us.

When something else comes in to this mental state via sense-impressions, we can actually share that impression with others. “Hey, there’s an AMC Matador with a missing hood!” We know from observing other people that when someone says “Hey, there’s an AMC Matador with a missing hood,” and points at a cat, this is disconfirming, and that it says something about the mental state of the declarant. But when the mental state of the declarant, as related by him, is ALL we have to go on, we simply have no access. “God told me to skin you alive,” as the famous song begins. Did he? Is there a god? Did that god really say that? Who knows?

If I am pretty sure I see an AMC Matador without a hood on the street corner, I can get confirmation or disconfirmation from other people. “That’s just a cat.” But if I am pretty sure that I’m getting instructions from the beyond, I can’t. I think this is very different from “I feel shitty.” “I feel shitty” may be knowledge, but it’s a first-person, sense-impression-independent account of my own cognition itself. By that nature of the thing, it sort of bypasses the whole “confirmation” problem: it’s the “cogito” in “cogito ergo I feel shitty.”

So if the recipient of a revelation says, “whoa, dude, I just had the wildest hallucination,” that’s probably knowledge of the cogito-ergo-I-feel-shitty class. If instead he says, “whoa, dude, now I know there really is a god who tells me to skin people alive,” that’s the sort of claim about the outside world that calls for confirmation.

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Sure. So we test they hypothesis that something such as “memories” exist by showing or telling people stuff, then seeing if they can remember them some time later at greater than the likelihood that would be expected if they were just guessing. Easy. We now have scientific reason to accept that when someone says he remembers something he could be reporting something that really exists, though he could still be mistaken or lying in any particular case.

Similar tests could be done of Divine Revelation, and then we could accept them as real as well if the tests were positive. But we don’t have those results.

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You and I are in complete and utter agreement on this!

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We do not, in any more fundamental way. It’s axiomatic. One has to begin somewhere. That is why Descartes started with cogito, ergo sum.

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A question I’m wondering about is whether or not there is any distinction between “revelation broadly construed” and “science broadly construed”.

But to apply that amount of solvent to both, such that both dissolve into the same indistinguishable slurry, is just a way of ignoring what’s distinctive about evidence-based modes of inquiry. These “universal solvent” arguments always work at a certain naive level where the only relevant thing is abstract philosophy. So, for example, here, I take you to be saying that since we learn almost everything we learn second-hand, whether that’s by tonguing an idol and listening to someone chant spells or by reading a paper in a journal, all knowledge we obtain in this way derives from this same second-handedness. And in a certain restrictive sense we can never “know” anything other than what our own sense-impressions tell us, so everything is up for grabs.

But observations like that, while not particularly assailable in their own terms, are not in fact practical avenues to understanding the world. One can cling to them for special purposes such as preserving divine revelation as a “way of knowing,” but if one does, and yet goes back to work reading journals and acting as if nothing is inconsistent about that, one is not being wholly honest to oneself about what the true significance (or, I should perhaps say, insignificance) of these wild forays into the philosophical wilderness is.

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One difference I would see is that science broadly construed is the result of an attempt to group together a number of things for which there is general agreement that they qualify as “ways of knowing.” That would not apply to “revelation broadly construed.”

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Except science includes appeal to revelation (broadly construed). If we never explained our thinking to one another, or revealed our data, science itself would not exist.

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Repeatability is important in science. A scientific claim, fact or observation can be checked by anyone with the curiosity, expertise and necessary kit. I’m not sure where you start with “God appeared to me in a dream”.

ETA slowmode is not universal, I see. :wink:

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You could ask if other people, in independent circumstances, also claim to have met God in similar dreams. That would not resolve everything, but it would an evidence based starting point.

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You could ask if other people, in independent circumstances, also claim to have met God in similar dreams. That would not resolve everything, but it would an evidence based starting point.

Here’s my anecdotal evidence:

Some of my Christian friends told me stories of how some fellow Christians prophesied or God gave them a dream that they would go to China and become a missionary, or become a pastor - which later evidently became obviously untrue for both of them.

I had a recurrent dream when I was younger and still a very faithful Christian that I was fighting a battle for Christianity in the Last Days, and that I was climbing a tower, but as I climbed the tower, I learned that Christianity was not what I thought it was. I had thought nothing of it, that it was just a dream and remained a strong Christian for many years; but evidently this dream came true for me.

More along the lines of evidence - there are about 5000 near death experiences collated by an MD at

Well worth the time exploring if you’re curious wether NDEs are evidence for a particular God or not.

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Thanks for sharing. I doubt anyone argues all dreams are divine revelation.

In the cases you shared, I suppose can’t be sure one way or another.

A person receiving a dream of being a missionary in China does not mean he will become a missionary in China. It isn’t clear to me if the dream was conveying a reality that “would” or “should” or “could” be realized. Maybe you have more information that could clarify this.

As for your dream, it seems like it actually ended up true, surprisingly so to you at the time. It might have arisen out of subconscious insecurity about your faith. But perhaps it was revelation of what would happen, without making the statement that it should happen.

So maybe it was given to God. It is possible God gave you that dream to prepare for the reality of disappointment you would feel about Christianity. But I suspect you’d have a better idea about that than any of us!

I’ll point out too that I also have found much of Christianity disappointing and empty, at least as it has been practiced in the US. Though I have difficult defending Christianity, I still find that Jesus is worth following. At times I wonder if Jesus even resided in the versions of Christianity I defended in the past.

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One thing I’ve tried to include in my contributions to the discussion is this: revelation in the Bible and as thought of by many Christians does not only refer to dreams and visions. Revelation can include inspiration, wisdom and knowledge given to writers of scripture, wisdom and knowledge for individuals or groups from the scriptures illuminated by God’s Spirit, wisdom and knowledge obtained through prayer and meditation that is considered from God.

It’s also good to say again, that in a christian context, revelation is considered and evaluated in community and with the Bible as grounding.

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I wonder if this conversation is about a few different things that can be called “knowing.” For me, there is an important conceptual difference between “ways of knowing” and “ways of learning things.” When @swamidass writes about what he means by “revelation,” I think he is discussing the latter: we can find things out by having them revealed to us, whether by books or the voices of mortals or by voices we believe to be gods. Yes of course some things “revealed” to us are false, but even if they are true, the revelation was not a “way of knowing,” it was a “way of finding out.”

To me, a “way of knowing” is about how I might decide that I “know” something. We might all be familiar with feelings or intuition or other ways of sensing things like love (most notably IMO) and beauty, and most of us will understand what someone means when they say “I know I am loved” or “I know there is good in the world.” That person is likely to say “I just know” when asked how the “know” this. (Some might say “I can feel it” and some might say “use the Force”.) My long experience with conversations about “ways of knowing” does not include “revelation” as a way of knowing.

My thoughts FWIW.

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Interesting thoughts here @sfmatheson.

Though I do default to thinking about science narrowly, there can be value in thinking about it broadly construed as does @Faizal_Ali. That has limits, because by definition is often imprecisely demarcated, while simultaneously pejorative (rather than affirming) of other ways of knowing alongside science.

There a distinct set of pitfalls to thinking about revaluation broadly. It is a term with religious connotation, and can rightly be associated more to the particulars of divine revelation. At the same time I do think there are some strong parallels and resonances between how we should think about divine and non-divine revelation. Certainly the analogy breaks down, and we should be careful about inferences that are inattentive to divergences.

Is revelation merely a way of “finding out” (presumably with a way to verify) and not a “way of knowing” (which would require true justification in addition to true belief)?

I don’t think we can, generally speaking, draw that line. Here is why. If a trustworthy person us a truthful fact and we believe it, that is a valid and true justification for the true fact. Trustworthiness can be independently established with evidence, and the limits of trustworthiness can be rationally reasoned about as well.

For example, imagine my wife (whom I have independent reason to trust) tells me she saw my 5 year old son did X, and my son denies he did X, and I cannot imagine any motive she would make this up, and there is no contradictory evidence. In that case, her “revelation” is more than sufficient as true justification for a true belief, and is therefore knowledge. In this example, at least, revelation is a way of knowing.

Likewise, imagine several independent people give different accounts of a past event, as often occurs in eye witness testimonies, but all accounts include X, and there is no contradictory evidence, and we cannot imagine reasons all these people would make up X. Assuming X is not intrinsically unbelievable (eg the Resurrection), that agreement between independent testimony usually is a true justification for believing X, even if the witnesses disagreed on Y. (In fact, absence of any disagreement Y might be evidence of collusion!) In this example, also, revelation is a way of knowing.

Likewise, scientific data itself is usually revelatory too, in that it is conveyed to us second or third hand (often in papers) from those that directly observed it. If they misrepresent the data to us, we might think we know something from them, but even if we are ultimately correct, we don’t have knowledge if we relied on false reports of data.

This isn’t to say revelation always leads to knowledge. We can claim false things. We can be untrustworthy as we claim true things.

But I do think this makes clear that revelation can be, in the right context, a source of correctly justified belief.

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My daughter once gave me Neale Donald Walsch’s Conversations with God and I’m almost convinced he was sincere in his writing. I didn’t find the God he presented as convincing though, sort of in Walsch’s own image. The problem with people’s descriptions is they are hugely variable. I doubt you would get consistency even within one congregation, let alone across the World and across the time of written history.

Thanks for the response. I really shouldn’t do this as I try to live and let live. If a particular religious belief and community work for you, then fine. The propensity for faith is something people feel in differing degrees and, for all the rationalizing and philosophy, I think the driver is emotion. As for me, it’s not just that I don’t find religion convincing intellectually; I don’t feel any emotional need for it.

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