are you aware that the standard definition of “macro-evolution” is at or above the species level? if so, do you agree that “evolution” includes speciation and then some? (if so, you agree with macro-evolution)
We can find the quote. I would not misquote you.
Yes we can find the quote. See here. Note, as well, that I never said YEC-idols. You certainly did misquote me. I said anti-evolution idols:
One of the clear tells is that you are willing to work with OECs to discuss an old earth as a possible interpretation, but you won’t do the same with Christians that affirm evolution. That double talk it not honest or good faith.
You have the presupposition that evolution is in conflict with Scripture, but that presupposition can’t be found in Scripture. Someday I hope you are willing to trust God’s Word over your own presuppositions.
I’d like @r_speir to explain his exegesis of texts and what especially he finds about evolution that is in conflict with Scripture. I’m curious if it’s different or similar to my views.
To be fair:
I think you did clarify that you are not saying it is, but I would caution you that I do think you project your experience onto what you think others’ motivations might be. I understand this because I’m judgmental this way too. I sort of think we have a similar personality.
It’s been 13 hours and you appear to have moved on from your quest to find this quote. Do you have the character to admit you were wrong and - dare I suggest - even apologize?
I found only this and it corroborates Dr. S’s claim:
My accusation was this:
This would not normally require an apology if it was only a recollection of an event. But I did use quotes and I insisted that Dr. S specifically used the term “YEC idols”, which is not the case. Therefore, I can only admit my culpability.
@swamidass, you have my apology in this matter. You did accuse me of following anti-evolution idols, not YEC idols. My apology is in sincerity and I do not want to mitigate my guilt, but sheesh, that is a hefty accusation on your part that I follow idols. Stranger yet, is how millions across the planet are apparently in the same idolatrous cult as I, at least according to you.
I apologize to you just the same.
@thoughtful I realize this is important to do. I have tried to do that some on the previous thread
See my comments this morning and @3flames as well. However, I do have more Scriptures that I believe might forbid a belief in evolution. Some are controversial and I would probably be censored if we got into a serious theological discussion that starting offending people. Let’s compare notes the best we can.
I saw some of that. However, I wouldn’t invoke any of that, so we are probably on different pages
I challenge you to reconsider 1 Corinthians 4:6, Paul’s injunction “not to go beyond what is written”. It is a powerful testament that the Torah and the Prophets were not to be added to by any form of worldly gain of knowledge or wisdom - that would include any rewriting of ancient history and any novel scientific discovery [that is, any so-called ‘scientific discovery’.]
I have never seen an Evolutionist who has offered a good answer against Paul’s directive to not go beyond what is written as @Mark10.45 comments demonstrate below. Because his opening statement is wrong, it sends his whole response askew. Too, when an Evolutionist gives any answer to Scripture, we must always remember that their response is coming first through the filter of an evolutionary paradigm. @Mark10.45 states:
“This passage has nothing to do with science…Paul is preaching to the church at Corinth not to look to him or other apostles more highly than Jesus, which is the thing that is written. He is telling them to be “fools for Christ” and not develop their own theologies, calling for the church to be pure in what is written about Jesus, not to ignore science.”
What he clearly gets wrong is 1. that the “Scriptures” to Paul were the Torah and the Prophets, and 2. that the rule of theological studies is to always compare Scripture to Scripture and to remain in those bounds, and 3. that many spirits have gone out into the world today and that each should be properly discerned and tested against the standard of the holy text of the Bible.
Then why deal with science at all? It is the realm of worldly knowledge. YEC models all speculate extensively beyond what is written - there is no chapter and verse on heterozygosity or radioactive decay.
How does the study of either of those disciplines impinge on a YEC belief or add to the Scriptures?
Then I’m not sure what you were asking me to reconsider, either.
Studies of those areas show a literal interpretation of Genesis is not reasonable and is directly contradicted by empirically observed reality.
@r_speir why so silent here?
Here is my answer.
I’m not going beyond Scripture. I’m concerned about how YEC goes beyond Scripture.
This is selective. I haven’t said the same of you. This is being said due to specific statements, actions and disclosures by @r_speir that you haven’t done.
I’ve said many times that I have no issue with YEC per se and know many YEC with integrity. My concern is the anti-evolution prejudice and presupposition of many YEC, a worldview not found in scripture that takes focus off of Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith.
I would be interested in an example of how you’ve seen this play out, without naming names. I’m not exactly sure yet what you mean but I’d like to understand.
Have you read this yet? https://www.peacefulscience.org/is-jesus-greater.pdf
I think I had read it months ago. It was good to read it again. Some of what I would frame differently from that article is exactly what I wanted to put in my book review. So I better get around to finishing it. I read a bit more the last few days. I was going to try to finish tonight and I got distracted by other things.
As is obvious by now, I never put my confidence in any scientific, anti-evolutionary arguments. I never really tried to find explanations. I had maybe a few lame ones in my head that were really unscientific. Now I’m just enjoying learning more about how God created, new things in Genesis I never noticed before, how weird science really is, how little we actually really know. For some reason, humans today think we are so advanced. I suppose every generation and culture has thought that.
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@r_speir still waiting…