Sponges on ancient ocean floors 100 million years before Cambrian period

What I said was that the body types “otherwise seem to appear fully formed.” They seem to be standalone body types because, for whatever reason, there is no lineage similar to the hominids [A-N] that you used as an example. I am OEC, for instance, and I accept that the lineage that you show in the image could articulate a passage from ape to human. This photo alone doesn’t prove the relationship, but it is visually suggestive, so it makes sense as an example. The real point, and the one that I made, is that the argument surrounding the “cambrian explosion” would vanish if a similar lineage for the body types first appearing in Cambrian fossils were located, right?

I think that a fair answer is “yes.” The argument would go away, because if the objection were raised, as it is now, you could point to an image similar to the one posted above, showing hominid skulls. You could say that there would be deniers, and you may even be correct. But generally speaking, the argument would go away.

This is certainly an explanation for a lack of fossils. I have read of it before, as well. I don’t think that it is likely, because I’ve seen many, many fossils of very delicate forms of life, but it is possible, and I grant you that. That said, this explains why there may be a lack of transitional fossil evidence, but it does not explain the cambrian explosion. The lack of evidence of a transitional fossil lineage is not evidence for the many body types to first appear during the cambrian era.

This is why I bring up the God of the Gaps argument. I don’t use that argument, because I’m not in the business of explaining how certain species evolved. I’m in the business of asking how they evolved. So,. when one criticizes the God of the Gaps, it is because they take offense at God being invoked as the cause for any event which lacks evidence providing an evolutionary explanation. I understand that frustration and even accept it. But, it is unfair to use the same argument with evidence that does not exist in response to the cambrian problem. Maybe the evidence does exist. Maybe it will be found. But it is unfair to criticize a tactic as spurious, and then use one similar as evidence.

You two are obviously very intelligent and articulate people. I have a great deal of respect for what you have learned and even the time you spend here in trying to converse with folks like me whose opinions and (certainly) levels of knowledge differ from your own. But so many people here leap to defend a point when they should sometimes just agree. It makes it so much easier for all of us to seek the truth without getting defensive. There’s more common ground than you would ever imagine. So just seek the truth and see where it leads. None of us can go wrong by that.

I’ve said my bit and now I’ll go back to posting movie clips and asking people to not curse. :slight_smile:

At one time we only had fossils of bony fish and the same claims were made. Modern looking bony fish appeared “fully formed”. We then found very simple fish ancestors in the Cambrian (e.g. Myllokunmingia and Haikouichthys). Did the arguments go away? Nope.

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What are the arguments then? Fish did not evolve into fish? Seems like a good, potential example to me.

It’s not just the delicate nature of soft-bodied fossils. The Earth is a very dynamic place and plate tectonics also destroys many areas with fossilized remains. Again the farther back in time you go the much less chance you have of a fossil a) being formed and b) surviving to the present without being pulverized.

Remember the Cambrian “explosion” took 20 million years or so. It’s better to think of it as the Cambrian radiation. That’s a huge amount of time in evolutionary terms. The hypothesis is some physical geologic change in Earth’s history (possible atmospheric oxygen change) around that time opened up a vast amount of new ecological space for life to colonize. With the information from the earlier multicellular animals expanding exponentially there’s no reason in the world life couldn’t explore all sorts of new body plans and morpho-spaces in 20 million years. Note that we saw similar large and rapid radiations of life after each major mass extinction event where life expanded exponentially to fill the empty ecological niches. We know life is capable of such large rapid changes.

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The same argument was offered when the hypothesis of birds evolving from dinosaurs was first put forward too. Now we have thousands of transitional fossils of feathered dinos and early proto-birds and a very good understanding of avian evolutionary history.

It really is hard for me to grasp how anyone can still offer the God Of The Gaps arguments as the ID camp does, let alone expect science to agree with it.

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I realize that the term “explosion” has been beat to death over the interwebs, but it conveys a notion that is simply not appropriate - namely, that things happened oh so fast.

I have pointed to these before, and beg the indulgence of the moderators to do so again here. Readers might focus on just a couple of the examples - say, this species, the progenitor of the Hawaiian plants, this amazing specimen, and this one. (There are plenty of other fascinating examples to be found at this page.) Just from these examples, we see a spectrum of body plans, physiologies, and morphologies that exceeds whatever one can find in the Mammalia, and indeed in most animals. The evolution of these many forms from the tiny plants similar to the first example (Carlquistia muirii) occurred in a geologic blink of an eye - less than 5 million years - and likely required no new information (in the ID sense of the word).

Because of examples like this, I really do not consider the Cambrian “explosion” to be all that fantastic, and certainly it is not prohibited by some imaginary informational barrier, some arbitrary and incorrect “speed limit” for evolution, or any of the other roadblocks that antievolutionists think may apply.

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I’ve encountered people making that argument, and they are basing it on OLD data, possibly going back to Morris and Whitcomb’s The Genesis Flood. These people can be very annoying! Even before I read the succeeding comments I was pretty sure @Agauger wouldn’t make that sort of claim.

I’ll put $20 down that @Art has a combinatorial function up his sleeve.

\dbinom{ \verb|:-)| }{ \verb|:-)| }

edit: He does, and I’m too late!

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A general comment on “Where did all that information come from?” questions.

First, it a really vague question about a very specific topic. Look at all the problems we’ve has trying to disambiguate the concept of Mutual Information as an example. Arguments won;t answer it, because there isn’t a question here to be answered.

Second, if we could somehow define they question in an answerable way, then it becomes a dammed interesting question! We would like to know, and we imagine that we can answer it, but for the most part we can barely begin to ask the question properly.

I am highly in favor of having fewer bad arguments and more good questions. While I disagree with Ann, I’m just as interested in the answer as she is. Let talk about it.

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Good luck trying to get anyone from the ID camp to provide a concise definition of information in their “evolution can’t create new information” claims. If information is defined as genome sequence then known biological processes easily create new information i.e. new genetic combinations resulting in new phenotypes. The whole ID strategy has been to keep “information” as vaguely defined as possible so laymen hearing ID claim will assume the layman’s meaning of an external plan or blueprint.

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I very much agree with this.

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Note to self - try being a bit more patient…

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I’m all in favor of good questions too. And the nature of information in this context is important. I can’t answer it here, especially when I am thumb typing, but I will give it my best shot in a longer forum. It’s good to try to express things more precisely. But before I do, I’d like to know who I am writing to. Are any of you developmental biologists? This is important because the topic is the kinds of information required to create different phyla. Transcription factors are not enough. A second topic is how much information is required. What I mean by information enters into it, and truthfully we don’t know nearly enough about development in the various phyla to be able to quantify answer the question. But just doing an inventory will be helpful, and having another developmental biologist to assist would also be helpful. I am taking the question seriously. It will be a useful exercise even if it is completely inadequate.

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@evograd is. I know more than I should about this too. Transcription factor guided control is a big part of how development is encoded. It is not everything, but it certainly is a lot.

2 posts were split to a new topic: A Conversation about Mercer’s Paper

It was a “simple thought experiment”, people, to show the combinatorial possibilities. These obviously include all manner of regulatory mechanisms.

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It was clear to me.

In case it’s still not clear to others, all of those other regulatory mechanisms generate–or have the potential to generate–combinatorial complexity as well.

@Agauger You are writing to a diverse group of scientists and non-scientists. There is PhD level understanding of Information Theory AND evolutionary science. Peaceful Science has Physicists, Biologist, Geologists, Engineers, Philosophers, Theological, Students, and interested lay people. We drill down into the scientific (and theological) claims.

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I am, although I came into the field from an evolutionary biology background instead of from a developmental biology track, and I currently work exclusively with jawed vertebrates so I’m not an expert when it comes to more general phyla-level questions.

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I hope the new thread with Dr. Mercer won’t distract Dr. Gauger for providing that precise definition of information as it applies to biological entities. I’m interested to hear about the different “kinds” of information and how the different “kinds” were injected into a genome. Hopefully this won’t be like the YEC definition of “kinds”, changing every day depending on the circumstances. :slightly_smiling_face:

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I am also very interested in the precise definition of information as I am coming at it from the Information Theory side.

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