Continuing the discussion from The Theological Signifance of Descent From Adam:
So here we go @AntoineSuarez. Go ahead and take a post to summarize your view and ask me some questions of my view.
Thanks Josh!
I will do it within 2-3 days.
All the best
First of all I would like to thank Josh for opening this thread and giving me opportunity to present my proposal.
1. Even if all humans were genetically descended from a single primeval couple āAdam and Eveā generations may have passed before the appearance of sin.
In the Summa Theologica Thomas Aquinas discusses a couple of questions that are significant in this respect:
Thomas definitely states that in the state of innocence, there would have been generation, and this would have happened through coition just like now. Adam and Eve would have generated children even if they had not sinned and kept the state of innocence. [Summa theologica I, q.98, a.1]
Subsequently Thomas states that in the state of innocence Adamās and Eveās children would have been born without original sin since āthe children would have been assimilated to their parents as regards original righteousnessā. [Summa theologica I, q.100, a.1]
Finally, Thomas states that, although born without original sin, such children would have been capable of sinning, or in other words āthey would not have been born confirmed in righteousnessā. [Summa theologica I, q.100, a.2]
This analysis has an important implication: Even if Humanity is genetically descended from a single couple (āAdam and Eveā), generations may have passed before the appearance of sin, and hence there is no requirement that the first sin in human history (the āoriginating original sinā or peccatum originale originans ) was committed by a single pair from which every human person is genetically descended. Or in other words, whether the first sinners were or were not the genetic common ancestors of all human persons is irrelevant for belief in the original sin.
This also means that Thomas considers it possible that, in the beginning, humanity could have consisted of two groups: one of people in the state of innocence and one of people who fell and lost this state. However Thomas does not address (at least in the Summa and to my knowledge nowhere else) the question of how such a population evolved in the following course of history.
In my view this āquestion that Thomas didnāt addressā deserves to be discussed for it may help to illuminate the mystery of the transmission of the āstate of original sinā ( originated original sin, āErbsĆ¼ndeā). What is more, the āquestionā must be discussed if theology alleges to be serious knowledge.
2. A key Principle: Romans 11:32
Without entering details for the moment my answer to the question is:
Maintaining on earth people in a state of original grace and without need of Redemption together with people in state of original sin and need of Redemption would not be suitable for the sake of Redemption.
Accordingly, if one assumes that God creates humans to the aim of filling āthe Banquet of His Kingdomā, He had to alternative ways to reach it after the first (āoriginalā) sin:
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Send immediately sinners to join āthe devil and his angelsā (Matthew 25:41), and let on earth only people in the state of original grace or righteousness, without need of Redemption.
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Or, alternatively, take the righteous to heaven (as He took away Enoch and Elijah) and let on earth sinners in the state of lack of original grace and need of Redemption to give them opportunity to atone.
As we know, God decided for the second way in accord with the principle St. Paul enounces in Romans 11:32: āFor God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.ā
With relation to the question we are discussing this statement by St. Paul means that God has bound everyone over to the āstate of original sinā so that he may redeem them all.
Accordingly we accept that after the first humans sinned, Godās plan for Redemption requires that any new human person is generated in the state of need of Redemption or lack of original grace.
This analysis fits also well with the Easter Liturgy calling the Original sin āfelix culpaā : Felix was not the actual misdeed of the first human sinners but the decision of God to create their descendants without the state of innocence, in order to make it possible to redeem sinners of all times.
In order to avoid misunderstandings in this context, it is worth clarifying that God was entirely free to create humankind or not, and after the Fall God remained entirely free to redeem human beings or not. However, once God decided for Redemption He was no longer free to maintain people in the state of original righteousness along with people who had lost this state. This seems to be what St. Paul declares in Romans 11:32: God put His omnipotence and creativity at the service of mercy, and invented an amazing way to bringing good out of sin.
In this perspective the āfallā bore the state of original sin because it was the first sin in the history of humanity, and not because it was the sin of the primeval human persons (āAdam and Eveā): If the primeval persons sinned, their sin bore the state of original sin; if generations passed before the first sin arrived, then this first sin was the āfallā and bore the state of original sin even if it was not committed by the primeval human persons. The state of original sin is a product of both the pride of the first sinners and Godās will to redeem sinners. Thus āAdamā is the symbol of the first sinner, who transgressed as if all people were subsumed into him. As soon as the first sin happened, in order to make it possible to redeem the sinners, God acted as if all humanity was in the state of sin and needed redemption.
Against the interpretation of Romans 11:32 we are proposing one could object that it leads to consider that God is the cause of the original sin.
I answer that any act requires Godās cooperation; otherwise the act could not take place (every action of a creature is brought into existence and sustained by God). God cannot withdraw his cooperation because this would contradict his decision to create man free. Nonetheless āHe [God] is not the cause of sin, because he does not cause the act to have a defectā [Summa theologica I,IIae, q.79, a.2]. One could say that God acts like a pianist playing the melodies he wants; however, at intervals, God accepts to play what a human person wants. It is God who works in us, both to will and to work, but He is not the author of the sin in us. Similarly, mankindās first fall āboundsā God (because of His mercy) to create human persons in the state of original sin, that is, lacking the state of innocence. But the reason that God has acted this way is not His will, but the humans who fell.
In summary, according to Romans 11:32 for the sake of Redemption after the Fall only people without the state of innocence and necessitating Redemption remained in this world.
3. Original sin could have happened at the time when modern humanās population already had a large size.
According to me the creation of the first humans with sense of law and accountability happened at about 3ā500 BC at the appearance of writing. If you predate this date to about 6ā000-10,000 BC the implications for the transmission of āoriginal sinā would be basically the same.
At this time there were about 5-10 million creatures with anatomical modern human body. Let us assume that God endowed one couple of such creatures (āAdam and Eveā) with capability of freely loving God, and consequently accountability toward His law.
Let us assume that āAdam and Eveā or some of their genetic descendants committed the first sin in human history. Thereafter, in according our precedent analysis, all the genetic descendants of āAdam and Eveā on earth were in state of āoriginal sinā that is in need of Redemption.
4. What happened to the million modern humans āoutside the Gardenā?
So the question arises: What happened to all the million creatures with human body that didnāt have Adam and Eve as genetic ancestors and were spread over the whole earth? (the population Josh calls āoutside the gardenā).
My explanation is as follows:
At some moment corresponding to Godās proclamation in Geneses 9:6 after the Flood, God endowed all these creatures with capability of freely loving him and accountability toward His law but lacking original grace, that is the same state as the genetic offspring of Adam and Eve after the first sin.
This population and their descendants shared biologically and theologically exactly the same status as the genetic descendants of āAdam and Eveā, and were accountable Image Bearers . This means that Godās commandment in Genesis 9:7 be fruitful and multiply on earth referred to and sanctified also marriage between genetic descendants of āAdam and Eveā and other people.
5. Swamidass explanation
(Please correct me if I misinterpret you)
It seems to me that regarding the question of where āoriginal sinā comes from, Swamidass and Suarez share basically equivalent views:
Swamidass claims that āAdamās sin is our sinā.
Suarez claims that āthe sin of the first sinner is our sinā.
Incidentally, this view is also shared by @Kathryn_Applegate of BioLogos.
Where Swamidass and Suarez seem slightly to diverge is regarding the status of āthose outside the gardenā.
According to Swamidass the population āoutside the gardenā were possibly Image Bearers (since they possessed a human body) but NOT accountable toward Godās law, and consequently they were neither in state of original grace nor in state of original sin.
Those āoutside the gardenā interbreed with genetic descendants from āAdam and Eveā and produced a population of genealogical descendants of āAdam and Eveā. Any genealogical descendant acquired the state of original sin and after some generations (at latest of the time of Jesus) all human beings on earth shared the state of original sin.
According to Swamidass the transmission of original sin seems to be linked to genealogical ancestry from āAdam and Eveā, while according to me it is linked to the generation of any human person after the first sin even if she/he is not genealogically descended from āAdam and Eveā.
My objection to Swamidassā view is that he assumes marriage between people who are accountable and people who are not accountable and therefore cannot freely decide to love God and the others. It seems to me that such an assumption does not fit with the sanctity of marriage, especially if one considers that it was the āoriginal Sacramentā. This problem could be easily solved if one assumes that through the very contact with genetic descendants from Adam those āoutside the gardenā became accountable Image Bearers, that is, they were endowed by God with free will, sense of law, and accountability before marriage; and since this generation of adult human persons had happened after the first (āoriginalā) sin, they would have been generated lacking original grace, i.e.: in āstate of original sinā. If Josh could accept such a solution then our two models would coalesce to one.
I have also a minor objection regarding ācreation of Adam and Eve de novo ā:
In my view my assumption that God endows with capability of freely loving Him and accountability an adult modern human in the Neolithic is as de novo creation as if He does this to a heap of clay.
Anyway, I see no reason why the assumption of creating Adam from a heap of clay may account better for the transmission of āoriginal sinā than creating Adam from an adult modern human.
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Hmm, I should pick this up again.
Sorry Iām a bit delayed. So, are you hoping Iāll lay out how I am thinking about original sin? That might be helpful for me to work though.
Remind me again our goals @AntoineSuarez?
Also, this is an important point Iām anticipating here:
Thanks Josh for this response.
In my view the motivation for a Ā«genealogical AdamĀ» cannot be other than ensuring that Adamās sin (Ā«original sinĀ») becomes the sin of all humans after a certain moment in history, at latest the moment of the Incarnation of Godās Son.
But then you have to reject the possibility of human Extraterrestrials.
Could you please clarify your position in this respect?
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We need to pick this up again soon. Sorry about the delay.
I do not reject the possibility of ET.
Can you help us get back on track here? What questions should I focus on here?
Thanks Josh for your answer.
If you donāt reject the possibility of human ETs then the crucial question in the context of GA is whether or not these ETs can be considered genealogical descendants of Adam, and if YES how this descent came to be.
They would not be descendents of Adam. There are several ways to solve this theological thought experiment. Have you read Religion and Rocketry by CS. Lewis yet?
http://scientificintegrity.blogspot.com/2010/04/religion-and-rocketry-by-cs-lewis.html
Of note, the Vatican has discussed this already too:
I am glad you quote the Vatican in this respect referring to an article reproducing words of Fr. Funes and Pope Francis.
I have quoted these words in this article (p. 281) as follows:
āIn line with Funes and Pope Francis I too think that, if one takes evolution seriously, one has to admit in principle to the possibility that other living beings like humans exist on other planets, and it is clear that they cannot have originated from a primal pair on Earth. One cannot reject this argument by claiming that āthe existence of Aliens has not been provedā, since unless one explicitly rejects the existence of Aliens, one has to develop an explanation of original sin and atonement in accord with this possibility for reasons of logical consistency.ā
So, on the one hand regarding human Extraterrestrials you acknowledge:
On the other hand we have to admit they are in need of being redeemed by Christās Grace (see the claims of Fr. Funes and Pope Francis in āThe Independentā article you refer to).
Consequently the transmission of the state of need of Redemption (state of āoriginal sinā) in which we humans (on earth and outside it) are after the first sin of humanity (on earth) is NOT bound to genealogical descent from Adam.
So my question:
Which is the theological interest of the GA model after all?
Thanks in advance for your response.
āAny entity- no mater how many tentacles- has a soul.ā
OK, thatās just hilarious.
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This quote is a claim by astronomer Guy Consolmagno.
It is not clear what he means by the term āsoulā.
If he refers to Aristotleās principle of life, then any animal creature has a soul.
By contrast if āsoulā also refers to the capability of knowing what is good and what is bad, then I think that only creatures sharing a human body (that is, a body like Christās body) have such a capability.
So in my view only human Extraterrestrials would be in need of Christās Redemption and deserve to be baptized if they freely ask for this, just like uncontacted people of earth (if any) would deserve.
Not sure I agree with this. After all, who am I to say whether someone ādeservesā Redemption or not.
What do you mean by this?
Consider Matthew 28:19:
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
This means that every human being is called to reach Salvation through the Grace of Jesus Christ.
And this holds also for possible humans living outside earth, and for uncontacted people on earth (e.g. the Sentinelese) as well.
So we should not deny Baptism to them if they would freely ask for it.
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Oh, no, Iām in agreement with that. Where I disagree with you is whether we should baptize aliens if they donāt look like humans. But then again, whoās to say that those aliens didnāt have a space Jesus visiting them.
My position is:
If the aliens donāt look like humans, they donāt have knowledge about what is good and what is bad. Consequently they cannot sin and are not in need of Redemption, and so we should not baptize such aliens, as you also claim.
By contrast if the aliens look like humans, then according to Matthew 28:19 we should baptize them. But this means that they are in the state of need of Redemption and then it is clear that this state was not transmitted to them by genealogical descent.
So we have to conclude that the need of Redemption in which everyone is generated after the first sin is not bound to the fact that the first sinner was the Genealogical Adam.
And the question about the theological interest of the GA model arises.
Josh,
I apologize for insisting that this statement seems to have important theological implications, in particular the following one:
The transmission of the state of need of Redemption (state of āoriginal sinā) in which we humans (on earth and outside it) are after the first sin of humanity (on earth) is NOT bound to genealogical descent from Adam.
In view of this I cannot see which theological interest the GA model may have.
I acknowledge however that the GA model fits well the scientific data and has no discriminatory consequence for a whatever human group.
We are mixing two issues. You asked about aliens. That is a different speculation, and speculation it is. We do not know of intelligent aliens.
The GA is about something else.
If you assume that human Extraterrestrials can exist and encounter us, then you have coherently to discuss the theological implications of this assumption.
Now, you state:
Nonetheless they would be in need of Jesus Christās Redemption.
Accordingly the transmission of the state of need of Redemption (state of āoriginal sinā) happens neither by genetic nor genealogical descent.
You can escape this conclusion by rejecting in principle the possibility of human ETs. But this amounts to deny the possibility of evolution outside earth, and so you should not claim:
Iām not sure I said they would need Redemption. They certainly wouldnāt need redemption from Adamās sin, but perhaps from some other thing. They are after all in the perishable world. They would need some provision so escape the death of this world.
Except for I never said that. I donāt reject the possibility of ET. But ET would be āhumanā in the sense of descending from Adam, and not likely human in the sense of sharing the same form of us. Perhaps they might be rational souls, nontheless. Perhaps the would not be fallen. Who know? We are into full blown speculation here. However, it seems self evident that because they do not have any connection to Adam, genealogical or otherwise, they do not need redemption from Adamās sin.