Templeton: How Science and Religion Help Each Other

It looks like a nice godless group. Friendly.

If so, thatā€™s a benefit for them, not for science. But regarding the scientists, are you saying anything more than that your elucidation of genealogical descent generally, but not necessarily in the specific case, has helped some scientists understand that point? That might be a benefit to science, but it would not come from religion.

Now that might be a benefit for science considered as an institution, but itā€™s a political benefit, not a scientific benefit.

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@TedDavis @Djordje Iā€™ll get you one of these with your name and picture on it. :sunglasses:

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Iā€™m temptedā€¦ but nah. Thanks, though.

If a student asked me that, I would say ā€œto get a good job that makes enough to support yourself and your familyā€

But it hasnā€™t done anything for Ancestry.com:sunglasses:

Part of our job as scientists is public education. This is no small thing.

I think theology can bring good questions to science that we might not other wise care to ask. This can expand our understanding of the world by directing our attention into overlooked areas.

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Thatā€™s what my mom said when I started studying English Lit with intention of becoming a writer. That is, she said that I should find a more stable, better paying job.

I said that Iā€™d rather kill myself.

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Agreed. But public education isnā€™t science, and what you propose is less education than sugar-coating.

I doubt that it can. Can you give an example? Also, if thatā€™s true of theology, would it not also possibly be true of any other non-science? How about astrology, comic books, and impressionist painting?

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Yeah, that works for some students, but many (especially in the current generation) are wanting to do something they see as ā€œmaking a differenceā€ and getting a good job isnā€™t always enough. Iā€™m just saying, maybe we can lower or remove some traditional barriers.

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Maybe you should work on their parents to stop indoctrinating them to ancient beliefs about the world.

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But no, seriously, Patrick. Itā€™s obvious youā€™re passionate about science and, while Iā€™m sure itā€™s a part of it, I highly doubt that the only reason you became an engineer is because it pays well.

I enjoyed science and math in school and tinkering with electronics. I also knew at a young age that I could make money in technology compared to say the humanities. It went together. I remember asking an old Bell Labs engineer who grew up on a farm in Idaho, why he went into engineering. His one word answer made me laugh but stuck in my head. I asked "Why did he major in Electrical Engineering? His one word answer was ā€œHungerā€

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@John_Harshman, I educate future scientists for a living, I am telling you, if you canā€™t get them in the classroom, literally or figuratively, you arenā€™t going to do any good. Itā€™s not about sugar-coating. You canā€™t drop graduate quantum mechanics on a freshman and expect anything but confusion and defensiveness. You certainly canā€™t expect people to suspend their deeply held beliefs prior to stepping into the science classroom. I have students who say their ā€œworld is being rockedā€ every week by what they are learning in their science classroom, they both learning science and trying to figure out what science means in their life. You have to use appropriate tools, materials, and pedagogical techniques depending on the students that are in front of you.

You may see decrease of religion as a more efficient route to increasing the number of future scientists, I certainly do not. I think itā€™s much more efficient to lower barriers to entry to science education, lower the ā€œcostsā€ of staying in science, and promote the types of careers in science that students find attractive. Even from a secular perspective, surely itā€™s beneficial to produce more skilled scientists, even if they happen to theists.

My question to you is, is it more important to you to see more scientists or more atheists?

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@nlents I think you have a lot of experience here. Can you weigh in with Jordan.

I vote for more educated people. Education is now a human right. Science is a key part of being an educated person in the 21st century.

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Here is our common ground :slight_smile:

It is common ground. I am for the advancement of science education and not atheism. Science and religion was never mixed in my education. I went to Parochial Grammar School, Public High School and then Georgia Tech in the deep South in the 1970ā€™s. I never saw religion mixed with science. It just didnā€™t happen. When did creationism find its way back into science?

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As @swamidass says often, itā€™s not enough to be right, you also must be trusted.

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I think there is already a sufficient supply of future scientists without the need to convince those threatened by the facts that the facts are not threatening. After all, itā€™s only a comparatively small minority of fundamentalists who have this problem.