The Argument Clinic

Yes, same here. It would have to be under conditions where an organism faces some novel challenge that has a strong negative influence, or alternatively there is some very large possible gain to be had from (say) an enzyme suddenly being able to access a new highly abundant carbon source. Such situations do occur in nature, certainly many times on ecological scales and over geological time, but once this gain has occurred, it’s back to much longer periods of tiny fluctuations.

I don’t care what your ‘understanding’ is. Show it in the program or go away.


Btw in case anyone is interested, here’s a recent article on diminishing returns espistasis which, at least to me, is a really interesting subject in it’s own right:

Although I am unable to clearly see that in the paper, after considering the information in it more carefully, I think you are right on this point too.

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Here’s an idea: Rather than worry about what the paper says, go download the program and check for yourself!


I just noticed that this thread is now the most-viewed thread on Peaceful Science (at 18.5k views), beating out the 5 1/2 year old Heliocentric Certainty Against a Bottleneck of Two? (17.5k).

Yeah, but consider it as views per post, and it doesn’t look so good.

True – but the longer each post has been up, the more views/post it would generate. Likewise, ‘Comment’ threads show up to non-members, so would attract more views than ‘Side Comments’ would.

Admit it, you only posted to get even more views, right?


No. :slight_smile:

I’ve actually been watching its rise to the top of the ‘most viewed’ leaderboard for some time. I am merely amused that the ‘garbage heap’ thread is the most viewed on the forum. I think is says something, somewhat less than complimentary, about human nature. :smiley:

That’s very common on every internet forum I’ve ever followed. ATBC might have the longest running junk thread of them all.

The strong claim is I have not seen any attempt to reconcile the assumption of these sequences being retroviruses or endogenous retroviruses that are randomly written in the germ line. If endogenous retroviruses being randomly inserted in the germ line of animals turns out to be a rare event then the current scientific explanation is wrong.

What I mean by rare is the number that are deleterious which makes your claim more challenging if deleterious endogenous retroviruses are not rare.

Sure this is how it is working but when the established results are not solidly tested the claims that are made rely on untested results. You are relying on the assumption of methodological naturalism to draw many of the conclusions that the theory is built on.

You are back to assertions that ignore that we can see the Designers capability by studying biology. The designer is limited by the laws of nature that He established.

There are sequences similarities and differences. This is observed and very similar to human designs.

Biology is best understood when one infers design vs blind unguided processes. This is a claim that is backed up by the complex systems we observe when studying biology. The insistence on blind and unguided processes is due to the limitations of methodological naturalism. Insisting on this limitation is giving us a false view of reality.

You aren’t looking.


Have you entertained that multiple different life forms have been seeded on earth?

When you invoke “literal magic” to the alternative you are making a parsimony claim. Common descent is simpler than separate creation. This is what Darwins original claim was based on.

There does not exist any population genetics model that can show how animals with different genes and chromosome counts can be reproductively related. See do all deer share a common ancestor. Do all deer share a common ancestor?

Do you discount the possibility a creator is behind the diversity of life?

Ok this is a possibility however remote it is.

Another possibility is you lack imagination for God or a creator and limit your possibilities when looking at the data.

You are becoming the poster child for scientism.

It’s “multiple different life forms”, not “multiple difference life forms”. And yes. I have. So far, the evidence in support of that idea seems insufficient to warrant accepting it.

Again, your grammar is embarassing. It is not I who is invoking literal magic, but you, and not to an alternative, but as one.

Is it? How so? Please, explain.

Please, provide a citation substantiating that Darwin made any original claim based on an appeal to parsimony. Otherwise I am left to conclude you are lying again.

Nobody has made a demonstration that “a creator is behind the diversity of life” (what ever that means) is a possibility. So, no, I do not discount it. I cannot. Because there seems not to be a possibility there to discount.

Can you outline the evidence for and against that has driven you to this conclusion?

Did I make a literal magic claim? You are invoking this claim when you cannot imagine how it happened through natural means.

Reproduction is easier to understand than the ultimate origin if different animals.

Darwin predicts that different species and genera will undergo different selective pressures, and that adaptations and extinctions will be varied too across different lineages. The overall picture delivered by the paleontological record supports the explicative nucleus of common descent and natural selection. Darwin, moreover, openly rejects the hypothesis of independent creations, in that it would require many non-parsimonious assumptions.

So your asserting that no one has made a demonstration that a creator is behind the diversity of life. May I respectfully suggest that you are filtering data that suggests there is a creator behind the diversity of life.

Yes. The evidence in favour of the idea that multiple different life forms have been seeded on earth is none. The evidence against the idea that multiple different life forms have been seeded on earth is also none. Sufficient evidence to warrant accepting the idea that multiple different life forms have been seeded on earth is more than none. Therefore, I conclude, the evidence in support of the idea that multiple different life forms have been seeded on earth is insufficient to warrant accepting it.

That’s nice. But you said it was “simpler”, not “easier to understand”. Are they one and the same to you? In that case, why do you repeat yourself? Are they different? In that case, why do you switch topic instead of addressing the question?

The quote you continue with after that passage reiterates your own claim, but does not include, in context or out of it, an actual reference to Darwin’s writings. Perhaps this is my fault, and I should have been more specific when I asked for a citation. I am not looking for some blog article that merely claims what you claim, but for something that actually substantiates the claim itself beyond merely asserting it.

That’s “you’re”, not “your”. Learn your language. And no. Please, also learn to read. I asserted that noone has made a demonstration that “a creator is behind the diversity of life” (what ever that means) is a possibility.

Sure, suggest all you want. In fact, if it is of any concern to you, I hereby grant you explicit permission to openly accuse me of doing that. If you can substantiate an accusation like that, I might walk away humbled, and having learned something new. And if not - well, I don’t think either of our reputations stands to gain or suffer much from that. I’d frankly much rather discuss data, but I understand that’s not traditionally been your purview.