The Argument Clinic

Because it uses misleading and sensationalistic language like this:

The results are striking, even unsettling to say the least: COVID-19 mRNA vaccines accounted for the vast majority of reported cases in both categories, raising complex, and frankly, troubling questions for clinicians, regulators, and the public.

The number 2 drug in that study, clozapine, is one I prescribe regularly in my practice. It is reserved for a small subset of schizophrenia patients who are unresponsive to other treatments, mainly because it has a risk of agranulocytosis. Now, put on your thinking cap and see if you can figure out why there are more cases of carditis associated with the COVID mRNA vaccine than with clozapine.

I have no beef with the study.

Does it? What is that assertion of what it “seems to”, based on, specifically? I’d really like to know how you have determined that RFK Jrs actions here only target mRNA vaccines against upper respiratory tract infections.

With regards to those vaccines more specifically, I have a number of questions here that I think need to be answered by people defending RFK Jrs claims (ideally that would be RFK Jr himself of course) about Covid and other upper respiratory tract disease mRNA vaccines.

  1. When it comes to the Covid mRNA vaccine, what evidence is there that the vaccine side-effects are caused by the mRNA component, as opposed to the SARS-Cov2 spike protein that is produced by it’s translation (or, possibly, the combination of both)?

  2. How does the rate of vaccine-side effects from Covid mRNA-based vaccines compare to Covid vaccines based on more traditional protein technology?

  3. And what evidence is there that these same side-effects persist for mRNA-based vaccines against other upper respiratory tract infectious diseases?

@Giltil I hope you can see the basis for asking these questions. Have you asked these same questions, and if so, what have you found?

It seems to me that we’d need to have all of them answered and supported with some pretty strong data before we can justifiably go and claim that all mRNA-based vaccine technology for all upper respiratory tract diseases should be stopped.

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Well, I’ve suggested that it was the case mostly based on the piece below. Unfortunately, I don’t have access to the whole article, hence my use of « it seems ».

Heh. You can ctrl+a ctrl+c the entire article before the blocking pop-up appears, then just paste it into a text document. Here’s what it says:

Emily Mullin
Science
Aug 13, 2025 2:07 PM

RFK Jr. Is Supporting mRNA Research—Just Not for Vaccines
HHS is slashing hundreds of millions in funding for mRNA vaccines and infectious disease treatments, but leaving the door open to mRNA therapies for cancer and genetic conditions.

This month, the US Department of Health and Human Services announced that it was canceling 22 contracts and investments worth nearly $500 million as a part of a “coordinated wind-down” of mRNA vaccine research. Yet some projects that do not involve mRNA or vaccines have been caught up in the purge. At the same time, the administration has quietly endorsed research into mRNA treatments for cancer and genetic disorders.

HHS secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has long been suspicious of mRNA vaccines, and in May he announced that HHS would no longer recommend mRNA Covid-19 vaccines for healthy children and pregnant women. The same month, he canceled a $590 million contract with Moderna, one of the mRNA Covid vaccine manufacturers, for a bird flu vaccine based on the same technology. In a video on social media, he justified the latest cuts by saying “HHS has determined that mRNA technology poses more risk than benefits for these respiratory viruses,” which contradicts the scientific evidence.

“The major misconception is that mRNA is some voodoo thing that we are sticking into our body, that it’s a magic molecule from Mars,” says Jonathan Kagan, an immunologist at Harvard Medical School and cofounder of Corner Therapeutics, which is developing mRNA treatments for cancer.

Short for messenger RNA, mRNA is a molecule found naturally in every cell in the body. It provides instructions to cell machinery to make certain proteins and is used constantly by the body to run and repair itself. Kagan likens mRNA to an app for human health. Scientists have figured out how to make synthetic versions of the molecule that can be programmed to make different kinds of proteins. This tailored mRNA can then be delivered to people to address various diseases.

“The problem with mRNA is that the first clinical application was the most political thing on the planet,” says Kagan, referring to the mRNA Covid vaccines. “Therefore the disease got muddied in the technology.”

Developed and authorized during President Donald Trump’s first administration as part of Operation Warp Speed, the mRNA Covid vaccines use the molecule to direct cells to produce copies of the coronavirus spike protein, stimulating the immune system to create defenses against the virus. The shots were instrumental in reducing deaths and hospitalizations during the pandemic, and while they have a very high safety profile, they have been known to cause rare cases of heart inflammation in boys and young men. In June, the US Food and Drug Administration approved new labeling for Moderna’s and Pfizer’s mRNA Covid vaccines to emphasize this risk.

Research into mRNA vaccines had been ongoing for years, and during the pandemic the technology was used because it allowed for faster manufacturing compared to traditional vaccine development methods. The versatility of mRNA led to an explosion of interest in harnessing it against a range of other diseases, both in vaccines and therapeutics.

After the success of the mRNA Covid-19 vaccines, the US government invested more heavily in mRNA technology. The canceled contracts announced on August 5 were part of a program under the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority (BARDA), the agency within HHS tasked with developing medical countermeasures against pandemics and other public health threats. Among the projects canceled are some that weren’t working with mRNA or on vaccine development.

One of the targeted recipients, Tiba Biotech, had a $750,000 contract with BARDA that was slated to end October 30. The company was developing an RNAi-based therapeutic for H1N1 influenza, also known as swine flu. RNAi is short for RNA interference and refers to small pieces of RNA that can shut down the production of specific proteins. The approach has been well studied, and several RNAi-based drugs are on the market. The first was approved in 2018 to treat nerve damage caused by a rare disease called hereditary transthyretin-mediated amyloidosis.

The contract cancellation came as a surprise to Tiba, which received a stop-work order on August 5 that did not reference the wind-down of BARDA’s mRNA vaccine development activities. “Our project does not involve the development of an mRNA product and is a therapeutic rather than a vaccine,” said Jasdave Chahal, Tiba’s chief scientific officer, via email.

Government contracts often include specific milestones that contractors must achieve to receive funding and move forward with their projects. Tiba says its project had met its goals so far and was near completion.

Also among the canceled contracts was a $750,000 award to Emory University to convert an mRNA-based antiviral treatment for flu and Covid into an inhaled, dry powder formulation. The project did not involve the development of a vaccine. “Unfortunately, we don’t have much insight to offer on the grant cancellation,” Emory spokesperson Brian Katzowitz told WIRED in an email.

The cuts are consistent with Kennedy’s desire to deprioritize research into infectious diseases, although experts have warned that they could leave the US more vulnerable to future pandemics.

Despite its scaling down of RNA-related infectious disease research, the administration has expressed enthusiasm about some non-Covid research involving mRNA.

In January, shortly after taking office, President Trump announced a joint venture by OpenAI, Oracle, and SoftBank called Stargate to invest up to $500 billion for AI infrastructure. At the time, Oracle CEO Larry Ellison talked up the potential for AI to make personalized mRNA-based vaccines for cancer.

In an August 12 op-ed in The Washington Post, National Institutes of Health director Jay Bhattacharya acknowledged the promise of mRNA. “I do not dispute its potential. In the future, it may yet deliver breakthroughs in treating diseases such as cancer, and HHS is continuing to invest in ongoing research on applications in oncology and other complex diseases,” he wrote.

Unlike his boss, Bhattacharya says he does not believe the mRNA vaccines have caused mass harm. But he says the reason for stopping mRNA vaccine research is because the platform has lost public trust—a rationale that deviates from Kennedy’s.

Yet mRNA may be more accepted when it comes to treating very sick patients with genetic disorders.

Earlier this year, regulators at the FDA greenlit a customized gene-editing treatment for an infant named KJ Muldoon with a rare and life-threatening liver disease. Created in just six months, it uses mRNA to deliver the gene-editing components to his liver. It was the first time a customized gene-editing treatment was used to successfully treat a patient.

In June, FDA commissioner Marty Makary praised the achievement on his podcast, calling it “kind of a big win for medical science,” and at an FDA roundtable Makary said the agency will continue to facilitate the regulatory process for these types of products.

The researchers behind the custom gene-editing treatment plan to use the same approach for more patients and recently met with the FDA about a clinical trial proposal. “The FDA was very positive about the proposal and effectively gave us the green light to proceed with our work,” says Kiran Musunuru, professor for translational research at the University of Pennsylvania and Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia.

The team has another meeting with the FDA in a month or two to discuss extending the platform concept beyond a single disease or single gene to a broader group of disorders. “We’ll see how that goes,” he says.

Emily Mullin is a staff writer at WIRED, covering biotechnology. Previously, she was an MIT Knight Science Journalism project fellow and a staff writer covering biotechnology at Medium’s OneZero. Before that, she served as an associate editor at MIT Technology Review, where she wrote about biomedicine. Her stories have also … Read More
Staff Writer

So TL:DR you’re just wrong, and the ban targets all sorts of RNA based research not even related to vaccines.

Don’t just read articles by their title.

RFK Jr. is a clown, a moron, an idiot, and a tool.

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Also, the article says (my emphasis)

Gee, funny how @Giltil seems to have forgotten that part of the article. Also, this is astonishing:

Gosh. I wonder how that happened.

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I was about to jump on that too. COVID vaccine got a lot more exposure in the first few months than clozapine ever will, so of course there are a lot of cases with side effects. It’s not the number of cases that matter - it is the rate at which harmful side effects occur.

Actually the number of cases does matter in a different way, having a large sample let’s you detect smaller effects that would otherwise get lost in noise. It could be possible for the mRNA vaccine to actually be safer, but we just can’t detect the harm in other treatments. I’m not saying that is the situation here, this is just an example to illustrate how to approach the question. You really need to look at *rates and risk.*

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The real point is that no one is denying there is reasonable evidence that the mRNA vaccine may increase the likelihood of carditis, particularly in younger males. This is not something that is being cloaked by a conspiracy of silence and may well be considered in policy recommendations going forward (in those countries where the process has not been co-opted by political ideologues with no scientific expertise, that is.)

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Agreed. There will always be some form of side effects for certain people, it is unavoidable. Transparency about what those effects are is simply good practice.

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With clozapine, what we now do is monitor the patients’ EKG and cardiac enzymes when starting treatment. It’s not that uncommon that the drug will have to be stopped because the results show early myocarditis. But it’s still a valuable treatment.

Another reason it may be so high on the list is there is an extensive monitoring system devoted just to clozapine, so any adverse effects are more likely to be reported than with the average drug. Something else it shares in common with the mRNA vaccine.

I wonder if @Giltil has thoughts on why “trialsitenews” didn’t have conniptions over clozapine when, in proportion to the number of times it is prescribed, it probably has a far higher number of reported cases of carditis than the vaccine does.

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I was about to post the comment “News headline: Drugs can have side effects! Film at eleven!” but now I don’t have to.

I suppose some younger folks might have no idea what I’m talking about.

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The authors used a disproportionality analysis that protects against the caveat you are pinpointing to. For example, they calculate a Reporting Odds Ratio (ROR) of 55 for pericarditis associated with COVID mRNA vaccines, which means that the odds of pericarditis being reported with COVID mRNA vaccines are 55 times higher than the odds of pericarditis being reported with other drugs or vaccines in the same database. IOW, the data indicates a strong disproportionate association between the vaccines and reports of pericarditis in the analyzed database.

This is false. The authors did not claim that their disproportionality analysis “protects against the caveat”, because that would have been wildly unethical (due to being blatantly and obviously false). Here is what the authors, who (IMO) exhibit both intelligence and integrity in their writing, actually wrote:

First, a remarkable statement in the Acknowledgements:

We acknowledge that some terms and statements in this manuscript (‘association’ or ‘drug-associated’) may be interpreted as implying causality or formal clinical guidance, which was not intended. The dataset is derived from a spontaneous reporting system and disproportionality analysis and therefore does not permit the estimation of incidence or prevalence. This discussion represents the authors’ interpretative perspectives rather than conclusions directly drawn from the database. Therefore, the findings should be approached with caution and are not intended to guide clinical decision-making. The terms ‘drug-associated myocarditis’ and 'drug-associated pericarditis emerged from a disproportionality analysis, which does not establish a causal relationship. Given that the primary aim of this study was signal detection, careful interpretation of the terminology used is essential.

Then this clear-headed analysis in the Discussion:

Furthermore, several issues related to COVID-19 mRNA vaccines may have influenced the results. First, myocarditis has been widely publicized as a potential adverse effect of COVID-19 mRNA vaccines, which may have led to stimulated reporting driven by heightened public awareness and extensive media coverage20. Second, the unprecedented scale of global vaccination campaigns resulted in a large number of individuals being exposed to these vaccines, naturally increasing the volume of reported events21. Third, it is important to acknowledge that SARS-CoV-2 infection itself is a recognized risk factor for myocarditis. In some cases, the reported events may have been attributable to concurrent or recent infection rather than the vaccine22. In our analysis, the high volume of reports associated with COVID-19 mRNA vaccines likely reflects both the widespread exposure and potential reporting bias, rather than an inherently stronger safety signal. This bias may also influence other aspects of the data. For instance, the median TTO for myocarditis was observed to be just 1 day—substantially shorter than what has been documented in clinical settings—which may suggest heightened vigilance and prompt reporting among vaccine recipients. Furthermore, we could not completely exclude the possibility of coexisting or recent SARS-CoV-2 infection in these cases, which limits the ability to attribute causality solely to the vaccine.

To my friends the @moderators:
I hope we consider keeping an eye on the falsehoods that @Giltil posts on the forum. I know this is the not-so-aptly-named “Argument Clinic” but my judgment is that @Giltil has progressed from the irresponsible and uninformed spraying of nonsense (indicative of immense gullibility), already an embarrassment, into the unethical posting of lies that can endanger people. At some point we become complicit with him and the systems of misinformation that he gorges on. For me, we’ve reached that point.

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Rather than CHERRY-PICKING the largest reported Covid vaccine (CV) ROR, let’s look at the full context:

This shows that the CV ROR is about half that of the Smallpox vaccine for both myocarditis and pericarditis, is also considerable smaller for myocarditis than Clozapine, and is of similar magnitude to four other drugs for myocarditis and one other drug for pericarditis.

All that this really tells us is that most drugs come with risks.

This is even before we delve into the biases in the data that the authors acknowledge in the text that @sfmatheson quoted.

This means that there is little point in you or ‘trialsitenews’ :face_vomiting: bringing up this study, beyond vacuous and irresponsible scare-mongering.

I therefore support @sfmatheson referral of you for closer moderator scrutiny.

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This is true. The caveat I had in mind is known as the exposure-related bias, which is when a drug or vaccine is used by so many people that it naturally leads to more reports of side effects, simply because more people are exposed to it. My claim is that by normalizing for differences in exposure volume, the disproportionality analysis performed by the authors mitigates exposure-related reporting bias. As a matter of fact, disproportionality analysis is a standard pharmacovigilance tool precisely because it adjusts for differences in reporting volume!

Of course the authors didn’t explicitly claim that their disproportionality analysis protects against exposure-related bias for this is basic knowledge in pharmacovigilance.

The two passages your are citing are irrelevant to my claim that the disproportionality analysis is designed to mitigate the exposure-related bias.

It is the second time on this tread that you falsely accused me of lying. You now owe me not one but two apologies.

As a final note, I would like to say that I have no interest in winning an argument by resorting to unethical means such as lies. What I am interested in is approaching the truth as best as I can despite all my limitations and biases. And I welcome any charitable corrections when deserved.

PS: your appeal to censorship is very saddening.

Well, you are either an inveterate liar, or you haven’t the slightest idea how to actually evaluate evidence to determine what is most likely true. That is to say your “limitations and biases” are so severe they render you incapable of discerning the truth.

Those are the only options.

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No, there is at least another one.

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Stop lying.

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Yes, including Covid mRNA vaccines, which was not the initial message hammered home to us by the health authorities.

Little point in bringing up this study? What about the point below emphasized by the authors themselves?

« For clinicians, these findings suggest the need for heightened awareness of potential cardiac adverse events following vaccination or drug administration, especially in at-risk populations. Furthermore, early detection and appropriate treatment are crucial to mitigate complications associated with these conditions. »

Stop lying.

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