Why would you think it makes much of the bible redundant?
The first two statements are contradictory (and Adam was clearly in the presence of God in Eden), the third assumes that the Garden was somewhere on earth, similar to how we live…I find that hard to believe. It seems more reasonable that Eden was in heaven and God was God, coming and going as He pleased.
Abraham was never in the direct presence of God that I know of. God spoke to him in dreams and visions and through angels. Abrahams righteousness is attributed to his faith, which comes by believing the unseen (John 20/1 Peter 1), so God’s Word confirms Abraham did not see Him directly (Genesis 15/Romans 4/Galatians 3/James 2.)
The bible is pretty clear that to be in the presence of God takes specific steps and God is not in the form of anything human on earth, except as Jesus which required a virgin mother…He comes in pillars of fire or smoke or in dreams or visions. Isaiah 6 is very similar to John’s visions of heaven in revelation, so it seems apparent that God was visiting Isaiah in a vision or Isaiah was taken in a dream to heaven (or Eden).
Not so casual after they sinned…they hid, because they knew they were no longer clean/righteous…(I don’t like the term clean, seems inaccurate, maybe that’s just my bible version difference.)
God walking in the garden is after the original sin.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”
What do you think the purpose of the Garden is?
Read Genesis 18. Yehovah visited Abraham, has food with him, shares His plans for Sodom and Gomorrah, and Abraham interceded for the righteous people in the two cities.
The bible has a few instances where God meets people. Some theologians call it christophanies (the logic being that no one has seen the father, so the one they saw must be the pre-incarnate christ).
One example is of Jacob wrestling with a “man”,
Another is the "angel who met Samson’s parents etc.
Then there are the appearances of God that are more terrifying such as His presence when he revealed the ten commandments to Moses.
They hid… but they didn’t die. They should have died in Gods presence since they had sinned and no propitiation was made for them. That’s fairly casual.
In this instance, yes.
However, it seems a routine thing as Adam and Eve are not surprised that God is visiting. They recognize it’s God jist from the sound. If it’s the first time God is visiting them in Human form, how could they recognize Him from the sound?
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What do you think the purpose of the Garden is?
One obvious purpose is to test Adam and Eve’s Loyalty. They are exposed to God, a relationship is formed and they are tested.
A hypothetical purpose is to train Adam and Eve in righteousness through interaction with God… and once they mature, they would have been given of the fruit of the two trees.
Genesis 18 is a good example, but I did not read it as God visiting, but three angels that were obviously representative of God to Abraham. I had not picked up on the example of the trinity before.
Christophanies are also not God as God is, nor do they necessarily have to be pre-incarnate Jesus, could be men or angels and God would be present, the bible is only clear on the issue of Jesus in that regard…John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” God is everywhere in everyone, He does not need to take form to know or meet people. He sees our hearts, and knows us before we are born.
I think your point about Adam not dying is good, but I read that as a lesson in God’s mercy and grace, that there would be discipline through expulsion and a future promise that Jesus would be their propitiation.
I’ll do some more research, thanks for the examples.
It’s not an example of the trinity. It was Jehovah and two Angel’s… says so clearly in the text. Let me quote the relevant verses:
Genesis 18:22 22 And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before Jehovah.
The two Angel’s leave and Jehivah stays back…from there to the end of the chapter, Abraham intervedes with Jehovah for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.
And verse 33 says Jehovah moves on…
Chapter 19:1-23 describes how the two Angel’s who went ahead of Jehovah save Lot and his family.
Verse 24, supports the trinity though (or atleast plurality in Jehovah)
So, the bible is very categorical in showing that Abraham actually met Yehovah.
In that case, God could have shown similar mercy to those outside the garden and met them also… After all the people outside the garden didn’t sin against God and they are yet to know the difference between good and evil.
Herein lies the issue of interpretation…I do not read that verse as though God appears to Abraham in the flesh of a man while at the same time fully God, along with two angels. Sorry, that just doesn’t make sense to me. You are welcome to read it that way, but I do not. I understand what you are saying, I just disagree that the text points to a personal physical interaction with God.
The verse says the men leave (not quantifying how many, maybe all three left) and that Abraham stands before the Lord (your version says Jehovah), which Abraham can do regardless of whether men are standing there or not. The fact that two angels go to Sodom in Gen 19 is irrelevant because the end of Gen 18 is Abraham arguing for the Sodomites, and God stating that He will go and see for Himself, which does not mean that He will enter the city in a fleshly form (He sees everything anyway), He sends His angels…I have to study more, but it doesn’t make sense in my spirit at the moment, not saying it is not a valid thought, just doesn’t sit right with me, I will work on a proper response.
Think about it. God in the flesh while remaining fully God is what Jesus is… if the second person of the trinity could do that in the incarnation… then why not before?
Also regarding the word "Lord… some bibles translate the name of the Lord, YHWH from the original text as Lord with a capital “L”. The original text says, Abraham met Jehovah.
I will leave you with another interesting christophany to chew on. Its found in Josua 5:13 to 6:5.
God bless.
I think that’s where our theologies may differ…I don’t see order to the trinity, I don’t see them as persons, they are one and they are God. I don’t see the story in Joshua as God either, nor Jesus, nor Holy Spirit. Commander of the Lord’s army, sure, that’s what it says…maybe the archangel Michael who leads the angels to victory over Satan mentioned in Jude and Revelation.
I still see the Abraham story as not an incarnation of God. Angel or some other vision, yes. For me, the whole context of the bible hinges on Jesus being the Jewish Messiah that fulfills prophecy, the only incarnation of God in the flesh, born of a woman, root and offspring of David, the beloved Son who alone offers salvation by grace through faith, who alone was perfect and worthy to die for our sin as propitiation, worthy to open the scroll, worthy to judge humanity. If there were other incarnations, other perfect beings who could have paid that price for us, then the promise of salvation through faith in Jesus falls apart. So, I don’t see it as reasonable in context with the rest of the bible, but that’s just me.
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Joshua worshipped this “angel”… and the angel had no problem with it…
The next chapter calls the Angel “Jehovah”…
I agree there has been only one time God incarnated as man… being incarnated requires one to be born of a woman.
Perhaps you can flesh out your understanding of the trinity. It might help me understand where you are coming from.
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Your translation seems to use “Jehovah” where mine uses “Lord”…I read New King James mostly. Interesting that you see Jehovah as literal for God, and I see Lord as a term of respect and reverance, attributable to an angel or other authority, sometimes God, mostly not.
After the last discussion on PS about trinity, the best scientific analogy I find is light. (1John1:5-God is light). Specifically the particle-wave duality that we now understand scientifically and the additional understanding of electromagnetic energy as a whole. As one they are light. The source of the light is God the Father, He is unseen initially, He is energy or electromagnetism that is mostly unseen, moving throughout the universe as He wills. Jesus is the particle sent to us, Holy Spirit the wave that guides the particle to us, they are one, they make God visible to us…God the Father is the electromagnetic energy behind it who is also one with them. Together they make a photon that interacts with life to make life and to expose darkness, making things unseen seen. Take away any part of the process and the light does not exist. God chooses what is visible to us and what is left unseen. The Father has the authority, the particle-wave behaves according to the source, but the particle-wave is originally part of the source and is also considered electromagnetic energy as it travels. All know what the other is doing at the same time. All are in everything and work through everything at the same time. Nothing is made manifest but through light. Nothing lives but for light. Light does not accomplish its purpose unless it employs all of its properties at the same time. We only see a small portion of the light spectrum, God operates within the whole spectrum so that much of His purpose exists unseen to our eyes. When I say God, I mean all three, for me there is no difference between them, they are all “light”.