The Counterarguments to reading Genesis 1 and 2 as Recapitulatory

Hi Guy,

You wrote ‘Taking bits and pieces from two different instances to make a point in no way means you don’t recognize they’re from two different instances.’ However, as I have explained, in the case of Jesus’ argument he is making an argument which is based on ‘the beginning’ (Matthew 19:8), which implies that in this case he is referring to one and the same instance i.e. the same beginning.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11:8, the context of 1 Cor 11:7-12 is making a point about male and female, not merely about the individuals Adam and Eve. The point would be void if there were (according to the sequential reading) already God’s-Image-Bearing females existing in Genesis 1:1-2:3 before Eve’s formation from Adam in Genesis 2:4-25.

Regarding history of interpretation, my point remains regardless of whether you are talking about Christological interpretations of the OT or NT. My point is that texts such as Wis 7:1; 10:1; Tob 8:6 is also evidence of the background context of Jesus’ and Paul’s statements in the NT which were made AFTER them i.e. after Wis 7:1; 10:1; Tob 8:6 were written, and which is important for interpreting Jesus and Paul. In other words, Jesus’ and Paul’s statements should be taken as assuming this background of Jewish understanding, unless you can provide evidence for thinking otherwise.

Okay, @Andrew_Loke ; let’s be explicit about the kind of argument you’re making.
Jesus answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
Jesus cites the “from the beginning” part from Genesis 1: 27, and the “for this reason” part from Genesis 2: 24 .
The case you’re making is that the “from the beginning, male and female” phrase, though only in Genesis 1: 27, functions to cover both quoted fragments, implying that they’re from the same event. But the “from the beginning” phrase is not present in the “for this reason” phrase.
You say that it would render Jesus’ argument pointless to see it otherwise.
I say that the general pattern is in chapter one, while the first specifically named instance is in chapter two, serving as a model of what is implied in the “be fruitful and multiply” phrase from chapter one, and Jesus carefully includes both to make a good argument.
You also state that the logic of 1 Corinthians 11 depends upon there being no human couples on earth prior to Adam and Eve, and that Paul’s argument is pointless unless that’s the case.
_The problem is, you’re doing that without properly discerning what Paul’s real point actually is, viz. the mutually dependent nature of both males and females upon continuing good relations, for without the one, the other is not even possible. _
_So, Paul’s main point isn’t about the order of creation, but about its lack of relevance in determining relations in a marriage; mutuality is the key. _
The other question is whether Paul is simply quoting an extrabiblical proverbial phrase which had been used to justify male supremacy, only to turn it on its head.
It’s obvious to me that’s what he’s doing.
Now for another counter-example; if I say, “from the beginnings of America as an independent republic, we have recognized the rights of individuals to freely cede governance over themselves in a manner which respects those rights.”
And then I give the quote “Nothing is more certain than the indispensable necessity of government, and it is equally undeniable, that whenever and however it is instituted, that though all men are created equal, and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, the people must cede to it some of their natural rights in order to vest it with requisite powers" to support my statement, any historian would note that I’ve combined quotes from the Federalist Papers (2) and the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence.
I am not thereby claiming that those arise from the same event, or comprise the same event.
Hope that helps. Thanks for remitting your own perspective, but I must strenuously disagree with you, my brother.
Cheers!
See, @swamidass , we’re both capable presenters, and being nice. Naught to worry over!

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Hi Guy,

You wrote ‘But the “from the beginning” phrase is not present in the “for this reason” phrase.’

But you neglected verse 8 which I mentioned before, viz. “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.’ From the beginning is mentioned here, and clarifies that it is foundational to Jesus’ argument.

You wrote ‘I say that the general pattern is in chapter one’, but as I said before, there is no pattern against divorce in Genesis chapter 1.

Re: 1 Corinthians 11, Paul’s main point is about the relationships between male and female, but his supporting argument is based on female formed from male, citing from Genesis 2:4-25, a point which would be made void by your interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2. If you think Paul is simply quoting an extrabiblical proverbial phrase, the burden of proof is on you to prove it.

Your so-called counter example is another false analogy because your argument for rights of individuals doesn’t depend on referring to the same beginning the way Jesus’ argument does (see above).

You also did not answer my point regarding history of interpretation. FYI, I am well aware of Christological interpretations of the OT. See my book The Origin of Divine Christology published by Cambridge University Press. I disagree with some of the Christological interpretations of the OT, which I think should indeed be rejected. For example, Bruce Waltke (2004, 127-130) notes that, beginning at least as early as Justin Martyr (AD 125), the church fathers almost without exception identified Wisdom in Prov. 8 with Jesus Christ, and this embroiled the church in subsequent controversies about the precise nature of the relationship between God and Christ. Waltke argues that a grammatico-historical exegesis of Prov. 8 does not support patristic exegesis.

To understand what a text is saying, we have to do proper grammatico-historical exegesis, and historical background is important. As I said before, Jesus’ and Paul’s statements should be taken as assuming the background of Jewish understanding which regarded Adam as the first formed human, unless you can provide evidence for thinking otherwise. But you have provided none.

I wonder whether your strenuous disagreement is based on really wanting to understand what Jesus and Paul are saying, or on some other agenda.

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You don’t need a pattern against divorce! You need to know the reason to work hard at being faithful to the marriage, which Jesus supplies. The pattern is FOR faithful marriage.
His answer amounts to, “why do you seek to be exempt from God’s best purposes and pattern for your life, which He established from the beginning? Remember the mutual love you once shared, and how it completed both of you? Make that your goal. And treat each other well, with committed mutuality.”
As for the extrabiblical proverb, find me where the text is being quoted from the OT that “men came first.”
As a later proverbial shorthand summary statement solely about the Adam and Eve story, it carries no force against the question about any “imago Dei” humans existing prior to them. First examples do not establish a universal rule.
It is a myopic, mistaken notion, poorly applied, which Paul has to work hard at countering in the attitudes predominant in a fallen world.
Every OT Christological interpretation had to climb uphill against then-current Jewish scholarship, so it’s a lousy test for true orthodoxy.
Question my motives all you want; I’ll simply go on offering a better exegetical option.
And now you know my agenda.
Cheers, @Andrew_Loke !

BTW, from first glance, it looks to me that your book is advancing a great thesis regarding Jesus’ teachings about Himself, and Larry Hurtado holds it in good regard, without agreeing completely.


So, it’s good to know I’m engaging with someone whose skin is thick and whose heart is tender towards God.
That places you squarely in my favorite kind of company, whether we agree on everything or not.
I’m flabbergasted that you think I’ve offered a “false analogy,” as it is, in fact, a great one. To each his own. Cheers!

Hi Guy,

You wrote ‘You don’t need a pattern against divorce!** You need to know the reason to work hard at being faithful to the marriage.’ But the reason for being faithful to the marriage is not present in Genesis 1 either, but from Genesis 2 which Jesus also cited, and given that ‘from the beginning’ is foundational to Jesus’ argument (verse 8), this implies that Genesis 1 and 2 refers to the same beginning, as I have explained before.

Concerning extrabiblical proverb, you are the one who claim it, not I. Paul evidently agree that female was formed from male (v.12), as affirmed by the non-sequential reading of Genesis 2:21-22 which implies that male came first and female was formed from male.

You didn’t answer my argument about historical background for Jesus’ and Paul’s statement. How can you ignore this when your agenda is to understand what Jesus and Paul was saying?

And I have argued why your analogy is false (‘because your argument for rights of individuals doesn’t depend on referring to the same beginning the way Jesus’ argument does’) but you simply reply by claiming that ‘it is, in fact, a great one’ without replying to my argument.

I’m however glad to know that I am in your favorite kind of company :slight_smile:

Of course it’s present in Genesis 1!
According to 1:27 ff., in order to be able to experience and reflect and obey God most fully, you need to be in relationship with at least a partner of the complementary sex, because it’s by your mutual union that you both express the “image of God” most fully. You can’t “be fruitful, and multiply” without that, for example. Only the later ravages of sin mar that pattern.
Now, the Bible does recognize that, for some, there is a gift of another kind of sexually celibate calling, for the sake of a different kind of multiplication.
But both of these depend upon ongoing, active devotion to God, to the purposes of nonsexual yet gregarious male and female relations, to the purposes of marriage, and without this appreciation, the question of under what certain circumstances God permits divorce is a shallow dodge, not a full-orbed and God-seeking decision.
Jesus “from the beginning” argument relies on a true phrase, without conflating two separate events thereby.
We don’t know whether Paul agreed without qualification to the proverbial assertion, since he immediately argues to counter it.
Of course he believes the Adam and Eve story!
The question is whether the whole notion is enough to overturn a sequential reading when, even in Genesis 1:27, male is mentioned first. Of course it doesn’t.
This is all part of the historical background to both Jesus and Paul.
The presence of conflicting formulations in extracanonical literature does not indicate that either of them assented to them.
You didn’t argue how my analogy was false; you simply asserted it was, saying that it didn’t rely on a “from the beginning” phrase (in the body of the quoted material, rather than in my summary statement?) when in fact, it did.
If your nitpick is that it wasn’t in the conflated quote material, but only in my summary statement, at best, all you could argue is that the analogy was not yet adequate thereby.
But you know how easy it would be to strengthen that, and the example as a whole serves in exactly the same way as Jesus’ quote.
So, am I allowed to wonder aloud now why you don’t seem to want to understand Jesus and Paul in full context? I have no doubt that you do, and so your apparent unwillingness to consider this approach is all the more baffling to me, personally. May the Spirit of God guide us both.
Have you even been willing to consider the other arguments I’ve made? Because you haven’t even begun to address the non-sequitur nature of God’s “very good” assertion regarding day six, if the fall is conceived of as taking place before its conclusion.
That at least suggests some caution with locating the narrative there recapitulatively. It would appear there’s a certain kind of myopia about these kinds of issues, including the question of how Cain got a wife from outside his family line, and just whom he began to build cities with.
Be open to the counterarguments.
Iron sharpens iron.
Cheers, @Andrew_Loke !

In Genesis 1 God created male and female in his own image, God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it…’ While this implies ‘you need to be in relationship with at least a partner of the complementary sex’, it does not say nor imply you have to stay with that partner and cannot divorce her and be with another partner and multiply through the other partner. Jesus “from the beginning” argument against divorce relies on Genesis 2 ‘they become one flesh’ to be also referring to the same beginning.

Where did Paul argue to counter ‘ woman came from man’? He actually affirmed by saying ‘For as…’

Even though Genesis 1:27 states male first, it does not say female come from male. That is from Genesis 2.

And where is there ‘presence of conflicting formulations in extracanonical literature’? There was no conflict about Adam being the first formed human during that period.

In what way does the argument for human right based on “from the beginning” ?
Indeed the analogy was not adequate. For Jesus’ argument to make sense the beginning need to qualify both citation from Genesis 1 and 2 as I have already explained. Your counterarguments don’t make sense.

Once again you have failed to hear the answers I’ve already given to these questions, and selectively ignored the other issues.
These do not appear to be the habits of a thorough scholar, but seem more like the reactions of someone determined not to listen and compare notes in an informed exchange.
It’s okay, though, because, like you, I’m used to that. It’s just escaping me on how to move forward without either simply reiterating what I’ve already said, when it would be just as easy for you to go back a few posts and read them charitably and in their developing context.
Perhaps it’s just due to you thinking reflexively about some issues? The slippage into reflexive logic is often difficult to detect within ourselves, but is vital to allowing a new paradigm to move forward in our thinking. Praying for an “aha” moment for you.
I have not said that Paul disagrees with Adam coming first, but only with the implications some draw from that.
He goes on immediately to say in 1st Corinthians, as I’ve already noted, that “in the Lord,” neither male nor female could even exist without the other, and thus they are both mutually vital to each other. It would seem that Paul is crediting the Lord with having changed his perspective on the implications that could be drawn from the “creation order” (sic). He argued to counter those improper implications.
The other supposedly missing premise in Jesus’ argument is supplied by the phrase, “and God created them in His image; male and female.” Jesus knows that the Father is not inclined to abandon or throw away someone who becomes a feckless annoyance to Him, and in like manner, this corrects those who would do so with their “ezer kenegdo” spouse, who are a “power” or “strength” “according to him” --not a mere disposable commodity. That’s all Genesis 1 stuff, before marriage is even mentioned as a “sacrament.”
That’s good, because that also rescues Adam and Eve from such accountability to the animals, who were, after all, created before both of them in the “created order,” but not made in God’s image. Elevating them to such a status is a relatively modern error by some.
Go back and reread my quoted analogy, including “at the beginning of the American republic” and you’ll see it functions exactly like Jesus’ quote. Looking backwards in time at “the beginning” of something doesn’t require you to believe that all the important things you have in mind happened simultaneously.
If you disagree, that’s fine --it just means to me that you’re being inexplicably, or perhaps unintentionally, obtuse.
Maybe I’m wrong.
Did the fall happen before the close of "day six?"
If yes, explain God’s “very good.”
If no, is it only chapter two, or how much further, that you try to make out as being simultaneous with “day six?” Would you agree that, by Genesis 3, at least, we’re already beyond "day six?"
If so, where in the narrative’s text in the Adam and Eve story does it note that transition?
How do you explain the difference between Adam and Eve’s charge to “tend the garden, and keep it” with the original mandate to fill the earth?
Doesn’t that imply a more nomadic, pre-agrarian lifestyle for the mandate in Genesis 1:27?
You don’t have to agree, but you do need to answer why you don’t.
Hope you have a productive and rewarding day.
The Lord will mediate between us both --He is, after all, the rewarder of those who seek Him.
Cheers, @Andrew_Loke !

‘I have not said that Paul disagrees with Adam coming first’—ok so you now agree that Adam is the first formed human being? That contradicts the sequential view that there were human females before Adam, as I have already explained before

‘ezer kenegdo’ is from Genesis 2:18, not Genesis 1. You are reading into Genesis 1 what is from Genesis 2, which you shouldn’t do given that you deny my view that Genesis 2 elaborates on the same event of Genesis 1.

Jesus said “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female” , he didn’t mention ‘image of God’ in his citation from Genesis. The image of God and the implication you draw is not cited by Jesus. You are guilty of constructing your own argument and reading it into Jesus’, whereas I am trying to understand Jesus’ argument on its own terms i.e. one which combines citations from Genesis 1 and 2 and regarding them as referring to the same event at the beginning.

I know you quoted “at the beginning of the American republic” but it doesn’t functions exactly like Jesus’ quote, because your quote merely looking backwards in time at “the beginning” of something, whereas Jesus’ argument does not merely backwards in time at “the beginning” of something but ALSO assumes that this as a foundational premise of his argument, and this will only work if the citation from Gen 1 and Gen 2 both refer to the same beginning as I have already explained many times.

You’re guilty of what you accused me of: you have failed to hear the answers I’ve already given to these questions, and selectively ignored the other issues: namely the important issue of the assumed Jewish background understanding i.e. texts such as Wis 7:1; 10:1; Tob 8:6 is evidence of the background context of Jesus’ and Paul’s statements.

Of course by Genesis 3, we’re already beyond "day six’. Why is this a problem for my view? Why can’t a couple“tend the garden, and keep it” while procreating offspring that will fill the earth?

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Nope.
Males are mentioned first in both accounts; so that doesn’t render the proverb invalid, but the question is how comprehensively it is to be understood.
In the story of “Goldilocks and the Three Bears,” Goldilocks was the first to the table, and so from it I could coin the proverb “first to table, last to leave.”
Obviously, however, she was the first to the table within the confines of the story only. The bears had lived there well before she came along, and been to the table many times.
The proverb is true enough, but not entirely accurate for the wider context from outside the immediate story.
So, Paul speaks quickly to correct the false implications which arise from taking the proverb too far. To wit:
“For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake… However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.” – 1 Corinthians 11:8-9,11-12 NASB
Obviously, Paul is delimiting the supposed implications from the proverb, by counterarguing that the point is moot in the Lord, in light of the way God has made things work.
That there were (or, if you prefer, may have been) other “imago Dei” females prior to Adam, whom he had never met, outside his story, does nothing to diminish the “true-enough” nature of the proverb.
Wisdom 7 concludes the section you’ve cited by saying that every man has come into being the same way. That’s hardly an argument for the inceptive special creation of Adam… so, what’s your point?
“I also am mortal, like all men,
a descendant of the first-formed child of earth;
and in the womb of a mother I was molded into flesh,
2 within the period of ten months, compacted with blood,
from the seed of a man and the pleasure of marriage.
3 And when I was born, I began to breathe the common air,
and fell upon the kindred earth,
and my first sound was a cry, like that of all.
4 I was nursed with care in swaddling cloths.
5 For no king has had a different beginning of existence;
6 there is for all mankind one entrance into life, and a common departure.” Wisdom 7:1-6 RSV
As for Tobith 8:6, it serves as exactly the same kind of background context as the Genesis 2 ff. story itself.
But, in the context of a Geneaological Adam understanding, it does nothing to negate the possibility of “imago Dei” humans preceding Adam and Eve.
The wider passage in Tobith is:
5 “God of our ancestors, you are worthy of praise.
May your name be honored forever and ever by all your creatures in heaven and on earth.
6 You created Adam and gave him his wife Eve to be his helper and support.
They became the parents of the whole human race.
You said,
‘It is not good for man to live alone.
I will make a suitable helper for him.’
7 Lord, I have chosen Sarah because it is right, not because I lusted for her.
Please be merciful to us, and grant that we may grow old together.”
What Hebrew word for “created” is used in Tobith? How is that supposed trump the lack of “bara” in the Hebrew of the Adam and Eve story? Are you in the habit of using non-canonical literature to “correct” canonical literature?
This has certainly turned into an argument between two specialists. In the end, it’s good to know that resolving this is not a soteriological matter. The Lord obviously loves us both.
What’s the problem with “imago Dei” human beings having been created before Adam, who are part of the quiet background context for the later Adam and Eve story, who as the first fallen couple, become the geneaological ancestors of all subsequent, and universally fallen, humanity?
Cheers, @Andrew_Loke !

@Andrew_Loke

I think everyone is overstating the entailed meaning of the text!

New Testament texts on divorce make as much sense with just Genesis 2 as they would with BOTH Gen 1 and Gen 2.

This particular dispute doesnt change the sequential interpretation either way.

@Andrew_Loke, changing the focus here a bit, woudl you be willing to set a side a day or two to explain the model you are putting forward in your book? This, I think, would be very helpful for people, and more interesting then trying to hash out a small detail without that larger picture in mind.

Would you be willing to do that soon?

Thanks.

Thanks for weighing in, @gbrooks9. @jongarvey , any comments? @swamidass , that’s a wonderful proposal to @Andrew_Loke . May the Lord be glorified in our fellowship and our mutual desire to understand God’s word.

Hi Guy,

Re: 1 Cor 11, your “Goldilocks and the Three Bears” is another false analogy, the proverb “first to table, last to leave” obviously applies within the confines of the story only. But Paul’s point is referring to male in general. Saying that male and female are dependent on each other and that all depend on God does not take away the point that female originated from male, which contradicts the idea that there were other females prior to Adam.

Re: Wisdom 7, the conclusion in v.6 refers back to all men (v.1) descended from the first-formed, thus it does not exclude the special creation of the first-formed himself. That the first-formed is Adam is evident from ‘of earth’ (v.1) and also Wisdom 10:1f which I cited. My point is that ‘all men’ (Wisdom 7:1) descended from this first-formed father (Wisdom 7:1; 10:1); this excluded other male or female humans prior to him.

Tobith 8:6: ‘They became the parents of the whole human race’—again this excluded other male or female humans prior to Adam. Which Hebrew word for “created” is used in Tobith is irrelevant.

I do not use non-canonical literature to “correct” canonical literature, but to provide background understanding for Jesus’ and Paul’s statements in the NT.

You did not reply to my point that you are guilty of constructing your own argument and reading it into Jesus’, whereas I am trying to understand Jesus’ argument on its own terms i.e. one which combines citations from Genesis 1 and 2 and regarding them as referring to the same event at the beginning, and which is based on the assumed background understanding of his Jewish audience.

You also did not reply to my argument that your quotation “at the beginning of the American republic” is a false analogy.

I agree that this is not a soteriological matter and that the Lord obviously loves us both. Nevertheless, the problem with “imago Dei” human beings having been created before Adam is contrary to Jesus’ and Paul’s statements, as I have explained previously.

I have already set aside a lot of time on this discussion, and because of my tight schedule I have to stop it here. Thank you for the discussion. May God bless you, and may He be glorified indeed.

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Dear Joshua,

Thank you for kindly hosting me here and for your warm hospitality. I am very busy at this moment, will try to find time to explain my model after the book is published.

Blessings in Christ,

Andrew

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@Andrew_Loke

This is a faulty analysis.

Gen 1 presents humanity as completed, male and female, with a specific sequence of appearance and no Tree of Good/Evil.

Gen 2, presented as the next development, with a specific man made in connection with a specific space, Eden, presented as a specific time and location … with animals appearing after Adam but before Eve.
But now, in this space, there is a tree of Godd/Evil.

@Andrew_Loke… i dont think there is any way you can successfully prove such a point.

If this interpretation was the salient one, Genesis 1 would not have explicitly referred to humanity in male and female form… even before mentioning the specific man and woman guilty of original sin.

Adam and Eve BECOME the SOLE universal sourve of Original Sin… by means of the genealogical principle commonly referred to by Creationists as “Federal Headship”.

Just a minor point - “federal headship” predates any modern idea of creationism by three centuries or more. A good number of creationists outside the Reformed or Lutheran positions wouldn’t even know what it is!

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@jongarvey

I wouldnt be surprised. Nevertheless… this is one of the few positions that can make some sort of sense for communicating Original Sin.