The "fine tuning" argument: A "meta" look

There is no flaw in my response. When you are trying to evaluate how likely it is that some hypothesis accounts for your evidence, you must factor in the prior probability of the hypothesis. But the prior probability of your hypothesis depends on your background knowledge. How often times, in general, are such explanations as the one you propose, true?

This is actually totally basic Bayesian reasoning about evidence, hypotheses, and probabilities.

Note that your response would also undermine any sort of deeper mechanism to explain the fine-tunedness of the fundamental constants. In fact, your response would invalidate the very notion of explanation.

How so? All my response is doing is pointing out that postulating a hypothesis with extremely low priors to account for some data, has the danger of still ending up with a very unlikely hypothesis even after the data is included. It is possible for the data (the evidence to be explained) to be so good that it overcomes this extremely low prior. But you’d have to actually try to derive the prior of the postulated hypothesis first before you could say. You can then plug your numbers into Baye’s theorem and calculate the posterior of the hypothesis being true, given the evidence.

With respect to your hypothetical scenario of a hypothetical planet explaining some pertubations on the trajectory of another planet, it’s prior probability given your background knowledge depends on how often times before similar such explanations have turned out to be true. I think we can agree that generally speaking, it has much more often been the case that bodies exuding gravitational attraction on each other result in pertubations of their orbits, than it has bee the case that ā€œchanceā€ was.

I’ve never ever heard of it being the case that ā€œchanceā€ was the real explanation for how some planet moved, and only ever heard of it being the case that other bodies with mass pull on them and affect their orbits, the hypothetical planet hypothesis must have very high prior probability, certainly much higher than ā€œchanceā€.

One objection you could be making here with respect to the God hypothesis is that we don’t know the priors. We do not have previous experience, we do not have background knowledge, about how often it has generally been the case that Gods pick values of the fundamental constants like the ones we observe. Hence the prior is basically uknown. But the same is also true for the prior probability of some deeper explanation for the physical constants. Again we do not have any background knowledge that tells us how often it has generally been the case that physical constants are explained by some deeper physical structure. Hence the probability of that is also unknown.

But then that completely undermines the fine-tuning argument for the existence of God, because none of the relevant probabilities are known that would allow us to determine how likely it is that ā€œnaturalismā€, ā€œtheismā€, or some other hypothesis is. It is not enough merely to say that the values can take some particular range N and then calculate the probability as being 1 in N, since it still doesn’t tell you whether that which causes the values to obtain is somehow biased towards any particular one.
The fact that I have a die with 6 sides doesn’t mean the die has a 1 in 6 chance of landing on any particular one. It could be weighted.

And by the way, I can’t take credit for this argument against fine-tuning. I’ve seen multiple philosophers raise it before, such as Keith Parsons:

That would seem to be compatible with the rare earth hypothesis as one solution to the Fermi paradox.

Here’s a particular version of the FTA as articulated by an apparently popular Youtube apologist:

  1. The probability of our universe being life-permitting given naturalism is very, very low.

  2. The probability of our universe being life-permitting given theism is not very, very low.

  3. The fact that our universe is life permitting provides evidence for theism over naturalism.

He is basing it on a more formally presented argument by philosopher Robin Collins (LPU= Life Permitting Universe; NSU=Naturalistic Single Universe hypothesis):

(1) Given the fine-tuning evidence, LPU is very, very epistemically unlikely under NSU: that is, P(LPU|NSU & k“) << 1, where k“ represents some appropriately chosen background information, and << represents much, much less than (thus making P(LPU|NSU & k“) close to zero).
(2) Given the fine-tuning evidence, LPU is not unlikely under theism: that is, ~P(LPU|T & k“) << 1.
(3) The theistic hypothesis was advocated prior to the fine-tuning evidence (and has independent motivation).
(4) Therefore, by the restricted version of the likelihood principle, LPU strongly supports theism over NSU.

http://home.messiah.edu/~rcollins/Fine-tuning/Abridged%20Version%20of%20Fine-tuning%20book.doc?fbclid=IwAR3ENKQPWNfwL1nqvv_DrUALpl0Rk1qEFUCkZdTMGQzv8Zj4_0pLStou3Ac

I don’t understand what all the algebraic symbols there mean, so I’m going to assume the Youtube guy’s version is a reasonably accurate representation. If so, then I think the unsoundness of the argument can be demonstrated by substituting some terms:

  1. The probability of someone whose height is 5’ 6" being able to dunk a basketball is very, very low.

  2. The probability of someone whose height is 15 feet being able to dunk a basketball is not very, very low.

  3. The fact that Socrates can dunk a basketball provides evidence for his height being 15 ā€˜, over it being 5’ 6".

That is not true. Even if it is very unlikely that a 5’ 6" Socrates could dunk a basketball, the fact that he can dunk does not mean he is more likely to be 15’ tall than 5’ 6".

In reading this more closely, the conclusion might actually be true: Taken in isolation, and neglecting everything else we know about the human organism and what height it can likely or possibly be, if one can dunk then that could arguably be considered ā€œevidence forā€ his being 15’ tall. If that is the case, then the problem with the argument is it relies on the reader confusing ā€œprovides evidence forā€ with ā€œdemonstrates as likely true.ā€

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I think what this reveals is actually that assuming all logical possibilties to be equally likely is unwarranted. If we know nothing about what the distribution of heights is, assuming all heights are equally likely is problematic. We have to remain undecided then, and for that reason an argument based on a probability we can’t (or don’t) know can’t be accepted.

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IOW, the argument that is meant to demonstrate that the existence of God is likely must first assume that the existence of God is likely.

Begged question.

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On a related note Paulogia did what I consider an excellent response to that video.

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Claim #2 relies on claim #1, and I don’t see how anyone could make claim #1. Nor do I see any evidence that either claim is not in question. What is the justification given by any of the names you drop above for claim #1? And really, Hugh Ross?

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I provide a link to an article by one of the people mentioned (Robin Collins) just above.

Here’s what Sean Carroll has to say on the topic:

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Does that link give a justification for claim #1?

I wouldn’t feel confident answering that. It’s a rather technical article. I just thought I would mention it as reference.

FWIW, it’s pretty clear from the video above that Carroll does not agree with either premise.

Yep, that’s clear enough. @ThomasTrebilco?

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Emphasis mine.

This just seems to be importing a frequentist understanding of probability in Bayesian terminology?

Did you read the quotes I supplied you from Barnes’ paper?

The paper is all about the ability to create a probability distribution for the cosmological constants. The paper argues this is perfectly justifiable according to the limits set by current physical theory.
Also, check the paper linked below by Sean Carroll’s twitter post where he argues something similar with respect to the multiverse.

All you seem to be saying with this criticism is that the fine-tuning argument could be isolating the theorem to certain evidences in a way that results in the weight of evidence favouring theism.

However, it’s not clear that there is any relevant evidence that’s not being included.

As someone so passionate about the evidence against YEC, I’m surprised to see you make this comment.

To maintain that the idea ā€˜evidence produces likelihood judgements about whats true’ is a confusion seems to create a problem for any framework of knowledge that wants to privilege evidence.

Isn’t evidence the very thing that demonstrates something (e.g. evolution or YEC) as likely true or not? If not evidence, how else are you to say that YEC is false (AKA not true)?

I’ve seen you say this of other arguments in natural theology/phil religion, but I don’t think this is quite right.

It seems to me that most arguments for God (including fine-tuning) only need to assume that certain evidences make the existence of God to be more likely than not (or some alternative hypothesis) in order to provide a demonstration (or at least contribute to a demonstration) of his existence. This just seems to be a direct application of the likelihood principle to knowledge.

It seems to me that to say that the arguments are all begging the question requires a commitment to the very radical idea that there couldn’t possibly be any evidence capable of shifting the balance towards theism.

If you don’t accept 1, you can’t possibly accept that fine-tuning is an intelligible concept in physics. Without the ability to plot the constants against a probability distribution, there’s no way to suggest that some feature of the universe is fine tuned or not. The fact that cosmologists think fine-tuning is an intelligible concept should therefore be good evidence to us non-experts that the values of the constants can be made more or less probable.

As I’ve sort of stated above, fine-tuning looks to me to be one of the things that’s required in order to have scientific evidence for the existence of a multiverse.

Carroll very much seems to support the two ideas I presented above.

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Cameron did a very detailed response video to that one (30min long)

This was followed up by a two person interview in which he was joined by Luke Barnes and a philosopher called Wade Tisthammer on the subject. It’s very thorough, but it’s about an hour and a half long.

For those not interested in the videos, Wade wrote up a blog response which is definitely worth checking out. He goes over some of the stats:

What amazed me about Paulogia’s response, and the responses of some internet atheists, is how they deliver remarkably bad objections to the fine-tuning argument. A much better objection is the multiverse hypothesis in which there’s a massive ensemble of universes with varying parameters such that at least one of them is life-permitting, thereby affecting the value of P(F|N). To be fair, this response does have its problems (there are a number of obstacles in making this a better explanation than design) but it’s certainly a lot better than [the puddle analogy].

If I were an atheist, I’d definitely be putting my stock in the multiverse as a response to the FTA.

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It’s just including background knowledge (when you have any) to determine a prior. Which is entirely proper and you should be doing.

It turns out that when we are talking about setting up the physical constants and the initial conditions of universes, we have no relevant experiences. There is no background knowledge that tells us what(if any) biases there might be to how physical constants/initial conditions of universes are set.

Proponents of the fine-tuning argument then attempt to get around that by imagining the set of all conceivable physical constants, and then having naturalism pull out a particular combination at random. The underlying assumption is that when this happens, all combinations are equally likely(in the same way it is assumed an imaginary flipped coin is fair, say). Then, because there is conceived to be a huge range of allowed values the constants can take, the prior probability of choosing the set we have (or any other life-permitting set) will be very small.

Some physicists and philosophers have responded to this by saying perhaps there is some deeper structure that explains why we have the values of the physical constants and the initial conditions we do. This would mean there isn’t actually a huge range of allowed values the physical constants can take, rather they are a necessary consequence of some deeper physics.

Proponents of fine-tuning then respond to that argument by saying any proposed theory that is supposed to account for the values of the physical constants and the initial conditions of our universe, is going to require as much fine-tuning as the fine-tuning it is attempting to explain. It will have to take the form of some very precise values of those underlying physical structures to give rise to this particular set of physical constants we observe, hence(they FT proponents say), the unlikelihood of naturalism doesn’t go away, it is just pushed a step further back.

And then philosophers and physicists respond to that response by the FT proponents, by pointing out that the God-hypothesis suffers from the very same problem. Here the ā€œdeeper physical structureā€ that is postulated to account for our observed set of values of physical constants and initial conditions of the universe, is a being with the remarkable property of being able to create universes, setting up the physical constants, and wanting to pick out the observed combination of physical constants and initial conditions, from the set of all those allowed values. So in effect, the theism-hypothesis has exactly as low a prior probability as the ā€œthe values were set randomly on naturalismā€ hypothesis.

Seems to you, perhaps. But your reasoning is tortured. Listen to Carroll explicitly deny the two premises:

No, all I am saying that I do not understand those symbols, so I cannot respond directly to Collins’s argument. Instead, I am responding to Youtube Dude’s paraphrase of that argument. Therefore, if I have misrepresented Collins’s argument, don’t blame me. Blame Youtube Dude.

I’m not arguing against the pertinence of evidence in general. Consider this YEC argument: ā€œIf there had been a worldwide flood, we would expect to find the fossils of dead things all around the world. We do find the fossils of dead things all around the world. Therefire, there was a world wide flood.ā€

The first sentence is true. However, I think you’ll agree the conclusion is not warranted.

Same thing with the argument we are discussing. Even if it is true that, if God existed, it would be more likely that an LPU would exist, this does little to establish that God actually does exist. We need more. Much more,

That is not something that can be assumed. It must be logically entailed or demonstrably true.

No, Cameron’s first video is the one Paulogia responded to. But I see you’re now saying Cameron did a response with some guests to Paulogia’s response.

I find that to be instantly disqualifying for whoever wrote that. Paulogia’s response was spot-on.

Thanks. And if I became a theist, I’d stop again.

I’ve now read the article that purports to show that Paulogia’s video is somehow bad. It does not succeed in doing so, in fact it is itself completely ridiculous. Some of the worst, most incompetent, question-begging apologetics I’ve read in a long time.

For example take the latter part where he says:

Contrast all that with cosmic fine-tuning, letting F represent The universe is fine-tuned for life . While God wanting a specific random person to win the lottery given that God exists seems extremely small, does the probability of God wanted a universe with life given that God exists seem extremely small? It does not. So as long as the prior probability of theism simpliciter isn’t too low and P(F|T) isn’t too low, cosmic-fine-tuning can potentially be very strong evidence for theism.

To illustrate, suppose that the God of our conception has only a mild interest in creating a universe with life and a mild interest of creating a physical universe just right for life such that this is true:

He then works through some imaginary example where God has a deliberately imagined prior that is ā€œlowā€ (he only has a ā€œmildā€ interest in creating life-giving universes? LOL) but high enough for evidence to bring the posterior up to being very likely.

I think we can all see the problem here. The ā€œlowā€ prior was deliberately set high enough for the evidence to overcome it. But it’s completely imaginary. Setting a prior in the absence of background knowledge either means you have an unknown value, hence you can’t make the argument to begin with, or you can choose to set the prior to one in the total number of conceivable options. Which, for a God, would be basically infinite. We can conceive of Gods that want infinitely many different things besides our universe.

Paulogia was absolutely right.

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Can you point to me where he says either that:

  1. We cannot calculate probabilities for the cosmological constants
  2. That the fine-tuning of life for individual universes are very small

Carroll believes the evidence indicates that we live in a multiverse. I have no idea how he could believe that if he denies these two things.

Maybe you could look at what they actually say instead of dismissing the response merely because of the concluding sentence of the piece.

It would be what someone who cares about evidence would do.

Ah, I meant to quote the bit underneath that too. The relevant bit was your parody argument.

I think the substitutions are fine. In the absence of anymore posterior evidence, the conclusions that socrates being able to dunk the ball is evidence he is 15’ is justified.

The conclusion is not warranted because of other posterior evidence - but the parody breaks down for the fine tuning argument because it’s not clear that there is any other posterior evidence.

So you think the evidential standard needs to be much higher.

This is fairly common among theists, actually. The common theistic view is that the fine tuning argument is one piece of evidence in a larger case of converging evidence.

I don’t know what you mean by demonstrably true.

I see no reason to think that evidence of God doesn’t just follow the same rules as evidence of anything else. It is precisely because of the assumptions about evidence that we make of, well, literally anything that we can assume the rule of evidence works for the question of God.

Ok, well this is just deeply uncharitable.

Perhaps it would be worth listening to the two person interview I linked above - fairly easy to setup for the way to/from work :slight_smile:

Or maybe there’s not really any interest in taking fine-tuning seriously? I’m not being condescending here when I say I can understand that and respect it, @Rumraket.

If this is the case, I would just respond to say that I think it is worth reading or watching interviews for some of the worlds most renowned atheist philosophers of religion, like Graham Oppy.