The Flagellum is Not a Motor?

[DaleCutler]

@Mercer

Are you only interested in arguing or are you interested in learning… what a rotary motor is?

I’m interested in your prediction of what you’ll observe if you’re wrong. If you’re so sure, what are you afraid of?

It looks like to me that the question is why are you so afraid of acknowledging that what spins a bacterial flagellum is a motor.

This is not a question about science at all. It is about understanding what a motor is.

[Michael_Callen (Herculean Skeptic)]

@DaleCutler What an utter waste of time was your entire response. Joshua asked me to make a list of similarities and dissimilarities between an electric motor and a bacterial flagellar motor.

You then took my list, out of context, and then dissected it, suggesting that I was saying things that I did not say. A question was asked, I answered. If you want to answer, go ahead and make your own list.

@DaleCutler

I’ve addressed every ‘dissimilarity’ that @Michael_Callen listed, and I’m waiting for more.

You are brilliant. Mom must be proud.

@DaleCutler

(In ref. to "runs on protons or ions vs. electrons) The energy source is irrelevant to the definition/understanding of a motor.

Whether or not it is irrelevant to understanding a motor makes no difference. This is one way that an electric motor differs from a BFM.

@DaleCutler

(In ref to more components become active at high load) I don’t see that as relevant to the understanding of a motor, just the distinctiveness of particular kinds of motors.

Yes, this is the issue. Distinctiveness = the quality of being individual or easily distinguishable. The list was a list of differences. The BFM, at high loads, puts more of the “motor” to work. This is not the way that traditional motors work. They, being solid bodied devices, run or don’t run. They may run a different speeds, but motors that I’ve worked with don’t run half of the motor, and then, automatically start up the other half when a load is encountered. BFM do this, and this is a difference.

@DaleCutler

Rotor configuration is variable.

I know of know electric motor where the rotor configuration is variable.

@DaleCutler

(In ref. to both bearings being at one end of the shaft.) Likewise. … There is nothing that prohibits that construction in an induction motor, for instance, but it just is not as practical with respect to bearing loading and size. Other motors could be built that way, too.

Once again, that they could be built that way (of which I disagree, because the shaft would wobble and the bearings and housing would wear out prematurely) is not the issue. This was merely a list of similarities and differences between a BFM and an electric motor.

@DaleCutler

(In ref. to the BFM being made of organic material, and the electric motor being made of metal.) Again, the materials are not particularly relevant, but more relevant to the source of energy and the means by which it is provided. The piezo motor I posted above is fundamentaly ceramic.

UGH… metal is different than protein is different from ceramic.

And on and on with each of your points. But I’m not going to spend any more time on this. If you want to engage with me, then read my points and reply in the context that the points are made. I’m not about to spend any time discussing anything with you otherwise.

[DaleCutler]

@DaleCutler

This is not a question about science at all. It is about understanding what a motor is.

. . .

[Michael_Callen (Herculean Skeptic)]

@DaleCutler

This is not a question about science at all. It is about understanding what a motor is.

Dale on Dale. Are you referring to what I wrote above?

[DaleCutler]

@Michael_Callen

Are you referring to what I wrote above?

Yes…

@Michael_Callen

Dale on Dale.

I’m sorry that the quote box was a problem. Here…

This is not a question about science at all. It is about understanding what a motor is.

[Michael_Callen (Herculean Skeptic)]

@DaleCutler

This is not a question about science at all. It is about understanding what a motor is.

Fine. No problem. What you are saying, I believe, is that your discussion was about understanding what a motor was. But when you quoted, and microscopically dissected what I said, you took everything that I said out of context. Joshua had asked to list differences between an electric motor and a BFM. I responded by saying I’d give it a shot and others could add or edit as they saw fit. Your critique was not in context with what I had said.

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@DaleCutler

As a Christian, I would say someone did see a function to employ a motor. (Or an ET, or a nanoengineer…)

As a Christian, I don’t see anything Christian in your arrogance.

I also don’t see that you have any faith at all in what you are asserting. If you had real faith, you wouldn’t hesitate to predict.

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@DaleCutler

…what are you afraid of?

Nothing? I know what a rotary motor is.

Then why not make some bold predictions?

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@DaleCutler

This has nothing to do with intuition. It has to do with what a rotary motor is .

Then that should make clear predictions about what you’ll see–not how you’ll interpret it–when you dig into the mechanism.

[DaleCutler]

Yes, I’m sorry. I did not realize that the context was necessarily an electric motor. Certainly, as an analogy to a more-or-less conventional electric motor, there will be horses’ legs missing. But as a rotary motor in general terms, what spins a flagellum is indeed a motor.

[DaleCutler]

@Mercer

This has nothing to do with intuition. It has to do with what a rotary motor is .

Then that should make clear predictions about what you’ll see–not how you’ll interpret it–when you dig into the mechanism.

No interpretation is involved, merely recognition.

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@DaleCutler

No interpretation is involved, merely recognition.

Then there should be zero reticence when asked for concrete predictions about the detailed mechanisms you have yet to encounter.

You don’t have faith, Dale.

[DaleCutler]

You seem to have strayed from discussing bacterial flagellum motors.

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

No, I’m discussing their mechanisms.

[DaleCutler]

@Mercer

Then there should be zero reticence when asked for concrete predictions about the detailed mechanisms you have yet to encounter.

The detailed mechanisms I have yet to encounter. Are you still referring to bacterial flagella? You don’t think that this has it covered?:

@DaleCutler

A rotary motor is an assembly of parts for turning energy into rotary motion, regardless of scale, materials and energy source.

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@DaleCutler

You don’t think that this has it covered?:

You’re just redefining as you go, and that is so tautological and vague as to be mechanistically meaningless.

@DaleCutler

A rotary motor is an assembly of parts for turning energy into rotary motion, regardless of scale, materials and energy source.

By that definition, a figure skater is a rotary motor. That’s a useless definition.

[DaleCutler]

@Mercer

By that definition, a figure skater is a rotary motor. That’s a useless definition.

Nah, you’re just too uptight. Have him grab a long ribbon before he starts a scratch spin and he could be a spool as well as a motor.

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@DaleCutler

A rotary motor is an assembly of parts for turning energy into rotary motion, regardless of scale, materials and energy source.

So Michael Jordan simply IS a rotary motor?

Michael Jordan's Spin Move

[Timothy_Horton]

@Mercer

So Michael Jordan simply IS a rotary motor?

…and Denis Savard.

Savard Spinorama

Cutler sure loves his silly semantic games, doesn’t he?

[DaleCutler]

@Mercer

So Michael Jordan simply IS a rotary motor?

Nothing simple about MJ’s moves, but you do suggest a valid point and a qualifier I could add to the definition:

A rotary motor is an assembly of parts for turning energy into rotary motion on a single axis regardless of scale, materials and energy source.

Let’s run with that for a while. Or dribble.