The Pollen Problem

I am a Christian but not a YEC, for many reasons. I have never seen YECs attempt to answer “The Pollen Problem.” Joel Duff has called it “Flood Geology’s Abominable Mystery” - see academia.edu (the ASA link where I first found it seems to be down).

It is basically this: Genesis tells us there were fruit trees in Eden, predating the flood. But most of the “flood layers” (as YEC labels them) contain neither trees nor pollen. Worse, plants appear in a sequence, from the bottom up - ferns and their spores appear together, then higher up, flowering plants and their pollen appear together, then higher up, grasses and their pollens appear together. Nothing about bouancy or biomes can obviously account for that; it’s not like oak trees and oak pollen float equally well, whereas pine trees and pine pollen sink together to a lower level in the water.

I can’t imagine a way the flood could sort them that way without being an intelligent and deceptive agent. YECs, can you?

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Clearly nothing to be sneezed at! :wink:

The only issue I have with this sort of “problem” is that it presumes a scientific question from an apologetic claim. That presumption is also an error.
That said, there probably are YECs making scientific claims along these lines, and they will certainly encounter big problems trying to explain it in any sensible way.

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Nevertheless, insofar as young-earth creationists do make scientific claims about the Flood explaining the fossil record, the pollen data does create serious problems for them. It is a fascinating one that had never entered my mind before but has now entered my arsenal.

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Oh yes, it’s an independent line of argument and a good one. My point is not to dive into such arguments before it is established what is being argued about. That is easily done by asking questions and drawing them out to make a verifiable claim of their own. I have yet to encounter a YEC who is not eager to explain things. With just a little patience we can have them defending their own claims, rather than our giving a science lecture to an uninterested audience.

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The thing I like about this argument is that, unlike most, it’s not very technical. Everybody has experience with pollen.

If you consider:

  • All types of plants grow at all elevations
  • Pollen can be blown hundreds of miles and ends up everywhere, including the ocean floor, caves, and mines
  • Pollen fossilizes very well

…It’s pretty hard to imagine it not ending up in all flood sediments in abundance. A counter of “one time somebody found it in a lower layer” would not explain the overall pattern. You would expect disturbances or mistakes to create false data points occasionally.

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Joel Duff posted a new article on this.

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This is especially true as YECs propose that the antediluvian world was especially verdant, even speculating about floating forests, in order to account for the amount of hydrocarbons present on Earth.

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Good point. And because “catastrophic plate tectonics”, if they didn’t melt the earth, would at minimum mean incredible constant tsunamis during the flood. So all pollen would be washed to sea and stirred thoroughly.

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But of course, the flowering plants could outrun the flood faster than non-vascular plants.

There are actually thousands (or more) of these kinds of issues with YECism.

I also think it is important to understand YEC is best understood as a concordist theological position.

Although YEC organizations make scientific arguments, the scientific claims ultimately rest on prior hermeneutical commitments about how Genesis should be interpreted (scientific concordism).

From this perspective, the core issue is not primarily scientific but rather it is hermeneutical: whether Genesis was intended to communicate modern scientific information about natural history.

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Funnily enough, I had assumed when I saw “the pollen problem” that you must be referring to the discovery of the Roraima Pollen in paleoproterozoic layers, invalidating the evolutionary story.

The consensus seems to be that the microfossils represent a case of contamination.

Consensus good for beneficial vs deleterius mutations ratio, consensus bad for the pollen.

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You can’t invalidate a signal by pointing at the noise.

Might want to do some further research on that location and what other YECs themselves has said about it prior to accepting the claims of a 2014 YEC article that has not been updated. It very similar to the pollen at the base of the Grand Canyon claim that is no longer used by YECs (at least by informed ones at least).

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I’m puzzled by your response. Consider: we have a huge amount of evidence about what the Roman world was like, from documents, archaeology, and structures that are still standing. If a single bolt from a modern bulldozer were found buried in Roman sediments, would you jump to the conclusion that the Romans had bulldozers? Or would you be inclined to explain it as some kind of mistake or fluke?

If you think this apparent exception overthrows all of mainstream geology, how do you explain the worldwide pattern of evidence that I described? How do you imagine that the flood created this pattern?

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Extended response to YEC claims on Roraima Pollen from Kevin R. Henke here:

Unsupported Young-Earth Creationist (YEC) Claims of Pollen and Spores in the Precambrian Roraima Supergroup of Guyana

There are thousands of geological formations demonstrating a pattern of fossilization found fitting intuitively and predictably with evolution occurring over geological deep time. This is a glaring demonstration of how YEC is completely out of touch with reality.

The fossil record is stratified, that does not seem to be disputed by YEC. The identifiable geological eras from the Cambrian forward are identifiable by geological characteristics but also by their fossil inclusions. The fossil record displays a general progression from more primitive organisms, extinction boundaries, and sorting of creatures into their associated epochs. This is precisely what would be expected given life evolving over a span of hundreds of millions of years.

Given that YEC holds that all the animals that ever breathed coexisted together before the deluge, this presents a challenge - if they lived together why did they not die together? The entire geologic column constituting most of the fossil bearing sedimentary rock found on the planet, would have been laid down roughly over the course of a year.

Flood proponents advance three scenarios, not necessarily mutually exclusive, to explain the segregation of the fossil record. The first runs something along the lines of; all over the world, as the flood waters were rising, animals were attempting to escape to higher ground. The quicker and larger creatures found their way to higher ground and held the valuable real estate until the end. Another is that their carcasses sank into the murky flood waters at different rates. Finally but foremost, the suggestion that various animals actually lived well separated from each other; as Bodie Hodge of AiG asks, would you want to live with dinosaurs?

Taken separately or together, I cannot imagine anybody offering these explanations without squirming internally, because they are so utterly dismal. Most often the question is addressed in terms of why no humans and dinosaur fossils have ever been found together, but that is only the thinnest sliver of the problem. Bear in mind that YEC believes that pretty much every creature that ever lived was present in the days leading to the flood. So we should find not just people with dinosaurs, but trilobites with crabs, dimetrodons with velociraptors, plesiosaurs with whales, triceratops with elephants, pterosaurs with buzzards - one could go on all day.

The question is, why would appealing land not attract the interest of animals associated with every epoch? Why would T. Rex not steal a lion’s kill? Just as there are animals which fill every climate niche available today, the same generally applies to dinosaurs. The YEC dodge that dinosaurs were located remote from other animals betrays a tacit admission, either they lived apart in time - which is the mainstream alternative but YEC rejects; or they lived apart in space - which makes little sense but YEC adopts.

If the animals lived together, perhaps they segregated as the flood waters arose. Could it have been by the size of the animal? Only a minority of dinosaurs grew to the size of large sauropods or T. Rex, most were comparable to elephants and buffalo, and many down to the size of badgers. There is also no reason to believe that the great variety of dinosaurs moved as a whole particularly faster or slower than an assortment of other animals. There are over a thousand identified species of dinosaur of many shapes and sizes; if they lived at the same time there is no reason to expect there would be no inter-sorting between Permian amphibians, cretaceous reptiles, and Holocene mammals. Finally, could they have sunk at different rates? That makes zero sense for sorting either, some animals would be tangled up or suffer trauma and not even float to begin, and again, many amphibians, dinosaurs, and mammals are about the same size and would bloat and sink randomly. These things are not like clockwork.

So it makes little sense that if animals from the various epochs were all alive at the time of the flood, that there would be any effective mechanism that would result in any sorting whatsoever. But the fossil record is screaming clear. There has never been a solitary dinosaur found above the KT boundary, and never a modern mammal ever below.

Flood geology holds that the deluge was an extraordinarily violent affair, spreading the continents apart, grinding primal rock to massive sedimentary formations, and jutting mountain ranges skywards. It is inconsistent that all this fury would reshape the planet but placidly lay each animal to rest in peace in some well ordered sequence followed the world over. That would be like, …what would be a good analogy? Well, it would be like a tornado in a junkyard assembling a 737 jetliner without anything out of place or in the wrong order. No Cambrian pieces after Jurassic, no Paleocene pieces before Triassic; nothing at all out of place.

So a simple question, one that could not be simpler. Given a violent, global flood, how is it these fossils are all sorted? You and nobody else in YEC apologetics has any answer that is not so ridiculous as to be an affront to biology, geology, and ordinary common sense possessed of any lay person. You have a much deeper, systemic problem than some poorly established report of pollen from 50 years ago.

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This particular consensus is based on nothing more than the need for it to be contamination in order for evolution to be true. This is why a pre-cambrian rabbit would not change anybody’s mind even were it to be found. This type of dismissal is always going to be employed if needed to save evolution. This is dealt with in the linked article. Contamination is not a likely explanation here.

The point of the Precambrian Rabbit is that under the presumptions of Flood Geology, or of any theory stating a pattern of descent that doesn’t display a nested hierarchy, such occurrences would be the rule rather than the exception. That is not what we observe. Instead we see that these expectations have very plausible alternative explanations. These do not even come close to challenging the consilience of evidence for evolution.

PS: I like your new avatar. :cowboy_hat_face:

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So precambrian rabbits will never refute evolution because there is no way to refute evolution, by definition.