The Religious Roots of a New Progressive Era

[Dan_Eastwood]

The Religious Roots of a New Progressive Era

Edit to add intro quote.

“Our form of government has no sense unless it is founded in a deeply felt religious faith,” Dwight Eisenhower said in 1952, “and I don’t care what it is.”

I’ve always appreciated that line, even though it’s usually quoted somewhat unfairly: If you read the rest of the speech, it’s clear Eisenhower was trying to make an ecumenical point about how multiple faiths might sustain the doctrine of human equality, not an indifferentist point about the irrelevance of theology to faith.

Opinion | The Religious Roots of a New Progressive Era (Published 2020)

[Jeshua (Jeshua Paul Satterlee)]

My prediction, religiosity will show a resurgence because this new brand of liberalism has no constraints to speak of and will sooner or later cause a majority of people to feel uncomfortable with secular society be them religious persons or not. Although perhaps that’s just an optimistic view of human nature.

I believe that the identity politics we see today or throughout the 20th century can largely be attributed to Darwin’s theory. I’m excited that GAE is trying to allow more people to see that we can evolve without losing our humanity.

[Mark10.45 (Mark McGowan)]

Our service this morning was on Romans 1 - the deterioration of society based on social tolerance and the natural willful disobedience man has in rejecting the existence and nature of God. Interesting to read that New York Times article with what I heard this morning. The pastor this morning cited the 1962 supreme court decision blocking prayer in school as the beginning of the end for religious moral standards in America. Joel Osteen isn’t helping the matter for sure, prosperity is a horrible religious doctrine. Always amazes me how history repeats itself, and the bible tends to be accurate regardless of the era or nation.

[Tim]

@Mark10.45

The pastor this morning cited the 1962 supreme court decision blocking prayer in school as the beginning of the end for religious moral standards in America.

Your pastor was misrepresenting the facts. Engel v. Vitale, the case in question, does not ‘block’ prayer in (public) schools per se, which is to this day perfectly legal. What it does block is government authorities imposing prayers. Such imposition is blatant Establishment of Religion and thus unconstitutional.

His argument that this caused “beginning of the the end for religious moral standards in America” would appear to be a blatant post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. I rather suspect that the participants in the ‘Summer of Love’ (in 1967) would have received most of their schooling under the pre-1962 regime (particularly given that imposed school prayer is still a problem even today). I would also point out Jerry Falwell Jr as a counter-example – I’m sure given who his father was, and the fact that he attended private schools, that he had prayers-in-school on a daily basis. This does not seem to have hampered his enjoyment of watching his wife have sex with other men.

Given that the “religious moral standards in America” pre-1962 included widespread support for segregation, I cannot see these “standards” as particularly “moral”.

[Rumraket (Mikkel R.)]

@Mark10.45

the deterioration of society

Is society deteriorating?

[John_Harshman]

@Rumraket

Is society deteriorating?

Well, those damn kids won’t get off my lawn.

[Mark10.45 (Mark McGowan)]

I feel like I’m walking into a mine field here…my point was that I heard something similar to the article in the sermon. The message in both is that there is a shift in moral standards in America based on tolerance, and no real direction or leader. From a non-Christian perspective, it is perceived as a good thing, maybe more freedom, maybe more equality. From a Christian (biblical) perspective tolerance is a dangerous practice that leads to immorality and societal decay. There are many examples in the bible, but not something that will happen overnight or even in our lifetimes. Rome is certainly not what it used to be. So, maybe I gotta put a fence up around my lawn…

Just having a conversation, not pressing one way as better than the other, just pointing out the similarities and differences to better understand what I do believe.

[nwrickert (Neil Rickert)]

@Mark10.45

The pastor this morning cited the 1962 supreme court decision blocking prayer in school as the beginning of the end for religious moral standards in America.

Then your pastor should have cited Matt 6:5. Jesus got there 2000 years before the supreme court.

[Mark10.45 (Mark McGowan)]

Amen to that…by the way, I think many of the Christians I encounter are hypocrites. You won’t get an argument from me on that one. The same was true for the Jewish leaders in Jesus time. It is human nature regarding pride and keeps repeating.

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

@Tim

@Mark10.45

The pastor this morning cited the 1962 supreme court decision blocking prayer in school as the beginning of the end for religious moral standards in America.

Your pastor was misrepresenting the facts. Engel v. Vitale , the case in question, does not ‘block’ prayer in (public) schools per se , which is to this day perfectly legal. What it does block is government authorities imposing prayers. Such imposition is blatant Establishment of Religion and thus unconstitutional .

For the record, I totally agree.

Students can initiate voluntary prayer whenever they like with other students, and that has never been seriously challenged. However, the issue is coercion. Teachers and administrators should never be forcing students into prayer against their will.

The fact that this totally sensible protection for students against coercive adults became part of the culture wars? I don’t have any good explanation.

This isn’t about keeping prayer out of schools, but keeping students protected from religious coercion. We all should support such protections.

[T.j_Runyon]

@John_Harshman

Well, those damn kids won’t get off my lawn

Quit skating on the sidewalks!

[T.j_Runyon]

@swamidass

Students can initiate voluntary prayer when ever they like with other students

“See you at the pole”.The whole dang school turned out for that thing. But some stayed in the gym for it.

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

Yeah, I did that while I was in high school, and once a week with other students at school. Nothing in the law was meant to challenge this. The issue was coercing students to do this against their will.

[T.j_Runyon]

@swamidass

However, the issue is coercion. Teachers and administrators should never be forcing students into prayer against their will.

My baseball coach forced us to go to FCA (fellowship of Christian athletes) meetings. Now I liked going to them but only now do I realize how
Illegal that was.

[Dan_Eastwood]

@Mark10.45

I feel like I’m walking into a mine field here…

I think you are fine, and thank you for your opinion.

Oh, and watch out for the … ###BOOM###

… nevermind!

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

@Mark10.45

From a Christian (biblical) perspective tolerance is a dangerous practice that leads to immorality and societal decay.

I really disagree with this @Mark10.45 .

Can you show any evidence of this in Scripture? I see the opposite, that we can find confidence to tolerate people we totally disagree with as we find confidence in Christ. Jesus was not coercive, and he doesn’t ask us to be coercive either.

[Jeshua (Jeshua Paul Satterlee)]

I think that deterioration starts in the home. It was 12 years ago now but my high school had both Bible club and the fellowship of Christian athletes. To me, the small percentage of students in attendance was hardly attributed to any court rulings or school policies. It was our teachers after all who hosted these clubs. Those same teachers are still there. Perhaps other students are not as lucky but I think the point stands that if people are worried about moral degradation it starts with the witness people offer their own children and friends.

I also would note the sermon on the mount and it’s implications and doubt that public and/or compulsory prayer is biblical in nature. The word prayer as found in Hebrew scripture is something like hitpallel it’s a self reflexive verb that means “to judge ones self.” This truly has no real connection with the English verb “to pray” meaning to beg or beseech. And certainly doesn’t mean to preach.

[Giltil (Gilbert Thill)]

@swamidass

@Mark10.45

From a Christian (biblical) perspective tolerance is a dangerous practice that leads to immorality and societal decay.

I really disagree with this @Mark10.45 .

Can you show any evidence of this in Scripture? I see the opposite, that we can find confidence to tolerate people we totally disagree with as we find confidence in Christ. Jesus was not coercive, and he doesn’t ask us to be coercive either.

Jesus taught us to love the sinner, not the sin, which we must fight.

[Giltil (Gilbert Thill)]

@Rumraket

Is society deteriorating?

In France, yes, undoubtedly, as evidenced by the fact that at the beginning of August the National Assembly voted a law allowing to kill a perfectly healthy child until the end of the pregnancy in case of psychosocial distress of the mother.

[Mark10.45 (Mark McGowan)]

I was referring to tolerating sin, not people. Sexual immorality, deceitfulness, adultery, gluttony, laziness, pride, unedifying talk are all tolerated in our society if not encouraged. I am not the judge, just the messenger. This was in reference to the article posted, not anything to do with coercion. I agree, it is not our job to push people one way or another, but it is our job to love, do good and live rightly. Which requires personal intolerance of sin. Our society teaches that it’s ok, so we fail.