Difficult for me to appreciate how a process to detach oneself from a thirty year (emotional?) commitment works.
I have used the non-smoker Vs ex-smoker metaphor previously but perhaps it’s pejorative. Losing one’s hearing Vs being born deaf?
Difficult for me to appreciate how a process to detach oneself from a thirty year (emotional?) commitment works.
I have used the non-smoker Vs ex-smoker metaphor previously but perhaps it’s pejorative. Losing one’s hearing Vs being born deaf?
Part of the problem is that Taoism is more a way of looking at the world than a set of specific beliefs. There therefore isn’t really much for me to lose belief in, and I’m sure that at least some of the worldview survives.
I don’t think belief in the (pantheistic force of) the Tao was ever particularly central to my Taoism, so I’m really not that sure that much has changed.
Well, that’s a big part of your problem right there. You think that just by saying something you have demonstrated that it is true.
Not at all. I am just pointing out that the means you claim can demonstrate the existence of your god are not suited for this. Just you cannot use physics to show that Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon, you can’t use history to show that the laws of physics have been violated.
So what is the discipline that can demonstrate that a miracle happened at some time in the past? I have no idea. Neither do you. Neither does anyone.
That’s not a problem for anyone who does not feel compelled by their religious beliefs to show that miracles had happened.
If I belonged to a religion that insisted that there was a divine porpoise that lived on a planet too distant from earth to ever be visited or visualized by human beings, I would just have to accept that there is no way to actually demonstrate this belief is true. I suggest you do the same.
But if some Christian can figure out some way that it can be demonstrated that a miracle happened 2000 years ago, I’d be all ears.
(Addendum: I see @Puck_Mendelssohn has already covered this issue in greater detail.)
Yes, the Christian claim is that he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. So if you find that he wasn’t killed by crucifixion or a tomb that has a body that’d definitely be a problem.
Muhammad and the Angel Gabriel
‘Read,’ said the angel.Muhammad was stunned. ‘I cannot read!’The angel squeezed Muhammad, and then released him. ‘Read’ he commanded.‘I cannot read’ Muhammad said, a little louder this time. The angel squeezed him again, tighter than before. ‘Read.‘I cannot read!’ Muhammad said, even louder. He was now rather afraid of being squeezed again. ‘Read’ said the angel ‘in the name of thy Lord who created man from a drop of blood: read in the name of the Almighty God who taught man the use of the pen and taught him what he knew not before...Muhammad recited the verse after the angel, until he knew it perfectly, word for word.
Many people believe the above is true.
Ok. Why don’t you believe it’s true?
Likely for the same reason you do not believe it is true. Our experiences do not predispose us to believing it.
I do not believe it’s not true because if experience. I believe it’s not true because I’ve read the Quran and it tells me to judge whether it’s true by the gospel and it doesn’t match the Bible and because I find the Quran to be contradictory in other ways.
Did you examine the Bible and Quran prior to your belief in the resurrection?
Which is impossible to do. Finding human remains of the period and location has happened. Linking those remains to a historical Jesus is utterly impossible. There’s no forensic evidence Jesus ever existed in physical form. It’s a matter of belief. No physical evidence exists that rules out or rules in the concept that Jesus lived as reported in the gospels. Unfalsifiable.
Muslims do not believe what you refer to as “the Gospel” is the actual Gospel." It has been corrupted by man. That is why the Quran must be transmitted word for word as it was revealed to Muhammad.
Try again.
That’s what Muslims say but their book says the opposite. They have to claim that in order not to be contradictory because their book is contradictory.
I’m specifically not judging by experience because experience is subjective.
Could you cite the specific verse? Preferably in the original classical Arabic in which you are, of course, fluent.
نَزَّلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَأَنزَلَ التَّوْرَاةَ وَالْإِنجِيلَ - 3:3
وَقَفَّيْنَا عَلَىٰ آثَارِهِم بِعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ ۖ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الْإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدًى وَنُورٌ وَمُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَهُدًى وَمَوْعِظَةً لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ - 5:46
وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ الْإِنجِيلِ بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فِيهِ ۚ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ - 5:47
أَفَغَيْرَ اللَّهِ أَبْتَغِي حَكَمًا وَهُوَ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ إِلَيْكُمُ الْكِتَابَ مُفَصَّلًا ۚ وَالَّذِينَ آتَيْنَاهُمُ الْكِتَابَ يَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّهُ مُنَزَّلٌ مِّن رَّبِّكَ بِالْحَقِّ ۖ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ - 6:114
فَإِن كُنتَ فِي شَكٍّ مِّمَّا أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ فَاسْأَلِ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِن قَبْلِكَ ۚ لَقَدْ جَاءَكَ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ - 10:94
وَاتْلُ مَا أُوحِيَ إِلَيْكَ مِن كِتَابِ رَبِّكَ ۖ لَا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِهِ وَلَن تَجِدَ مِن دُونِهِ مُلْتَحَدًا - 18:27
There you go No, I don’t know classical Arabic, but quran.com has a nice copy feature that only copies the classical Arabic not the English so no need to be fluent
So how did you understand what it said? Don’t worry, I am just making a response that is often typical of the Islamic apologist, that the Quran cannot be fully understood in translation, so anything that appears wrong or contradictory in it is just a result of mistranslation.
However, in this case there is no need to resort to such tactics, because the verses you cite to NOT say what you claim they did.
3:3 It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Quran) to you (Muhammad SAW) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).
Doesn’t contradict the belief that, after God sent it down, people corrupted it.
5:46-47 And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.
Ditto.
6:114 * Say], “Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?” And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.*
Sense a theme developing here?
10:94 So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.
Again, this does not mean the entire Bible as it existed then, consisted of the uncorrupted word of God. In context, this verse refers only to the story of Moses leading the Exodus out of Egypt which is recounted in the verses preceding. As always, context is important.
18:27 * And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge.*
This refers specifically to the Quran (the book that was revealed to “you”, ie. to Muhammad.) It makes no reference to the Bible.
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Isn’t the Quran the eternal word of Allah? How could he expect me to know my book is going to be/has been corrupted unless he tells me so?
Also, we have manuscripts before Mohammed came along that match from today! So feel free to check out this list. Show that the ones dated before Mohammed more clearly say that Jesus is not God and then ones after Mohammed show more clearly that Jesus is God. List of New Testament papyri - Wikipedia
I have extensively edited my comment while you were commenting. My apologies, I did not realize I had posted it. Please re-read it.
That’s easy! The Quran is the literal word of God, directly from him. The Bible does not even claim to be this. So whenever the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Quran is right. Simple!
But we have no manuscript that we know to be the very first one, do we? Also, how do you know that even that first scribe got it 100% right, and that the corruption did not already start from there?
I was not alleging that you are judging what is true by your experience only that you can be preconditioned by it. We are the sum total of our experiences both conscious and unconscious.
And that is true for atheists as well as for people who believe in God
Naturally!