Uses of logical arguments in debate


(Timothy Horton) #222

What design process is that? When have you ever observed a supernatural Being physically manufacture a living creature?

(Bill Cole) #223

No but we have observed a living creature create complex software.

(Timothy Horton) #224

Human software writing is the same process the omnipotent supernatural Designer used to create the entire universe and all life in it? :roll_eyes:

We’ll have to ask for your evidence to back up that remarkable claim Bill.

(Bill Cole) #225

Back to a straw-man fallacy. At least your consistent :slight_smile:

(Timothy Horton) #226

Back to Bill making his usual lame denials after sticking his foot in his mouth. At least YOU’RE consistent. :grinning:

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #227

C’mon @colewd and @Timothy_Horton. No one cares about the circular back and forth sniping.

(Ann Gauger) #228

Read the statement again.

It says nothing about intelligent design. It merely says we are skeptical…Careful examination of the evidence should be encouraged. Every skeptic would agree with that. You could sign that statement and be an atheist, or even someone who just wants to examine the evidence for evolution more closely, rather than declare it a “fact”.

I signed that statement well before I was convinced by design. I read it carefully to be sure I could agree.
Now many who sign it do support ID, but you cannot assume.

You imported the intelligent design into that statement. What logic were you using?


The statement may be innocuous, but in the past the Discovery Institute has disingenuously trumpeted it as evidence of a “controversy over evolution”.

(Mikkel R.) #230

I can’t reveal my sources. xD

I have documentary evidence how long I have been thinking and talking about it.

Fair enough, if I’m wrong here then I am wrong. Time will tell if we’ll start hearing “we predicted it all along” from ID proponents if this kind of research into autocatalytic metabolic networks shows any kind of promise.

You misunderstand me there I think. My last comment was meant as a criticism of the latest flurry of ID responses to Frances Arnold’s Nobel prize (as if artificial selection of enzymes when rational design failed is somehow vindication for ID), not of you personally. That is what you have to be really deep in your ID bubble to not see through.

(Timothy Horton) #231

What was the DI’s motivation in producing that statement and publicly crowing about its number of signers if it had nothing to do with their ID claims?

(Ann Gauger) #232


Fair enough back at you.

I’ve been meaning to ask. I think back in about 2015 -2016, some did a write-up of the nylonase story at TSZ and got the story completely right about the frameshift not being necessary, the point mutations that cause the nylonase activity, etc. I didn’t find the article until after I had posted mine or I would have given credit. Do you know who wrote it? It was well done. Was it you?

(John Harshman) #233

You aren’t talking about Sal Cordova, are you?

(Ann Gauger) #234

No, Sal’s review was later.


This doesn’t jive with the DI webpage:

You can accept the modern theory of evolution as tentatively true and still agree with the statement. That doesn’t carry over to the description from the Discovery Institute.

(Ann Gauger) #236

@T_aquaticus if you take Darwinism as you yourself define it, as the old out-dated version of evolution 1.0, then yes, you could sign the statement and still accept evolutionary theory as a whole as tentatively true. But you could do exactly the same thing with DI’s statement because it uses the same term “Darwinism”. Not that they intended that distinction, or that the signers did either.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #237

But @Agauger, why would any one sign a “Dissent From Newtonian Physics”? Signing a statement like the Dissent from Darwinism would indicate I didn’t know the content of modern evolutionary theory.

20 Years Ago, the Intelligent Design Movement’s “Wedge Document” Was Exposed
(S. Joshua Swamidass) split this topic #238

A post was merged into an existing topic: Darwinism Falsified in Science Long Ago?


The question is why the Discovery Institute didn’t make it a straightforward statement, something like “The undersigned reject evolution as a complete explanation for biodiversity and instead believe that an Intelligent Designer was involved.”. Why be cute with it?

(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #240

@Agauger As I am getting to know you, I am getting more empathetic to your thinking. Given your Catholic background, why isn’t this okay with you?

This gives you complete freedom to be a practicing evolutionary scientist and a good Catholic. What wrong with that?


Why are you making things personal?