Uses of logical arguments in debate

[Patrick]

@Mung

Why are you making things personal?

Because I like Ann as a person, a fellow human being, a person with a similar age and background with me. Sorry if my human empathy and compassion is showing.

[Timothy_Horton]

@T_aquaticus

The question is why the Discovery Institute didn’t make it a straightforward statement, something like “The undersigned reject evolution as a complete explanation for biodiversity and instead believe that an Intelligent Designer was involved.”. Why be cute with it?

It’s just keeping with their whole ruse “ID doesn’t say the Designer is God wink wink”. It hard to imagine just who they think they’re fooling.

[Guy_Coe]

They’re making fools of all you guys who think you know their position better than they do.
There a lot of perspectives on the question of the designer that unite a number of “odd bedfellows” under the ID rubric.

[Timothy_Horton]

@Guy_Coe

There a lot of perspectives on the question of the designer that unite a number of “odd bedfellows” under the ID rubric

Part of the DI’s “big tent” strategy. Be as vague as possible to appeal to every flavor of Creationist from YECs to OECs to TEs to the Last Thursday nutters. Then you’ve got the “Big bang pool shot” IDers, the genetic "front-loading"IDers, the “Designer came by in the Cambrian” IDers, the “Designer tinkers whenever necessary” IDers. Oh, and lets not forget the Raelians.

The only real fools are those who think the DI is pushing a legitimate scientific idea or that there is a legitimate major controversy over evolutionary theory in science.

[Dan_Eastwood]

I’m late to this party, but I like @Agauger’s speculation about what happens AFTER something is found that clearly did not evolve. I’m add my own speculations to this.

Given: We discover the Wodget, and it could not have evolved.

1. I conclude the Wodget either has no biological function, or has some non-biological function. This follows because expect biological function as the result of evolution, not the opposite. This does not rule out wodgets with biological function, but makes them much easier to identify.

2. If 1 is not correct and the Wodget has biological function, then we have discovered non-evolvable biological function. I don’t know what this means, nor do I have any idea what criteria are required for some function to be non-evolvable. I don’t think anyone else knows either.

3. Being non-evolvable does not imply Design. For instance, something might be “found” that fulfills the role. The example I have in mind is Mercury (Hg), which IIRC is had biological function as a catalyst is very small quantities. There is no DNA coding for Mercury, it is found in nature, it has biological function, and it is not designed. A crutch or artificial limb might be the opposite example, possibly designed (if more complex than a tree limb), and it restores lost biological function.

3.5) My mercury example fails 1 (it has biological function) but passes 2 (found in nature and not evolvable).

4. Found wodgets don’t need a designer.

I don’t have any example of wodgets lacking biological function, which might be because I am interpreting biological function rather loosely. If we allow wodgets to be non-physical, then perhaps music could be a non-biological function, but then I don’t know how we show music did not evolve.

Pardon my wild ramblings, just trying to get these odd thoughts out of my system.

[Guy_Coe]

Should I go ahead with your view and agree that you exist as cosmic fluke, that you were not made in the image of God, and that, should I ever meet you, I can simply dismiss you, somehow? Can I get guarantees from you that you won’t see my special needs daughter as somehow inferior and not worth the effort it takes to nurture and care for her? Or, are you the Pete Singer type?

[T_aquaticus]

@Guy_Coe

Should I go ahead with your view and agree that you exist as cosmic fluke, that you were not made in the image of God, and that, should I ever meet you, I can simply dismiss you, somehow?

I have never understood why being a cosmic fluke would automatically mean that we have no value as human beings. Strange that.

[Guy_Coe]

I didn’t say no value. Pete Singer, however, has said that humans like my daughter are of less value than a pig. Lodge your objection with him, please.

[T_aquaticus]

@Guy_Coe

I didn’t say no value. Pete Singer, however, has said that humans like my daughter are of less value than a pig. Lodge your objection with him, please.

You were claiming that @Timothy_Horton holds those views. Why do you think he holds those views? More importantly, why would you link human value to how we came about? I am curious about the logic behind that conclusion.

[Guy_Coe]

I asked him if he held the same views as Singer, who justifies them from an evolutionary perspective. That’s a question, not an identification. Don’t get why you didn’t see that.

[Guy_Coe]

@T_aquaticus

More importantly, why would you link human value to how we came about? I am curious about the logic behind that conclusion.

You’ll have ask Singer about that. Remember? I don’t agree with those views.

[T_aquaticus]

@Guy_Coe

I asked him if he held the same views as Singer, who justifies them from an evolutionary perspective. That’s a question, not an identification. Don’t get why you didn’t see that.

Because of this sentence:

“Should I go ahead with your view and agree that you exist as cosmic fluke, that you were not made in the image of God, and that, should I ever meet you, I can simply dismiss you, somehow?”

[Timothy_Horton]

@Guy_Coe

Should I go ahead with your view and agree that you exist as cosmic fluke, that you were not made in the image of God, and that, should I ever meet you, I can simply dismiss you, somehow? Can I get guarantees from you that you won’t see my special needs daughter as somehow inferior and not worth the effort it takes to nurture and care for her? Or, are you the Pete Singer type?

What a bizarre off topic whine that was. Sheesh.

What in the world would lead you to believe I or anyone think people’s lives have no value??

[Rumraket (Mikkel R.)]

@Guy_Coe

You’ll have ask Singer about that. Remember? I don’t agree with those views.

Assuming you’ve correctly described his views, neither do I.

[Agauger (Ann Gauger)]

@Mung

@Mung

Why are you making things personal?

No harm, no foul.

[Guy_Coe]

Thanks for not dismissing my ACTUAL views, @Rumraket.

The most dangerous man in the world

[Agauger (Ann Gauger)]

@Patrick

Thank you Patrick. I like you too. I like my humor dry and wry. And I actually liked the article, especially the guy at the end who said,

"I can know perfectly what a cell is made up of, but how it works deep down, what really is the dynamism that makes it move—that is, life—I don’t know. A refrigerator and a car are complex structures that move, but only with an immense amount of energy from the outside. Life, in its deepest essence, remains something that escapes us. Life is more than molecules.”

[Agauger (Ann Gauger)]

@Timothy_Horton

The only real fools are those who think the DI is pushing a legitimate scientific idea or that there is a legitimate major controversy over evolutionary theory in science.

Well, not an acknowledged legitimate controversy. It does get raised every now and again by people like me:
Here’s what I have trouble with: evolutionary biologists’ faith in what amounts to providence. Organisms have to solve real, specific problems. If a cell needs a polymerase to copy DNA, ATP synthase won’t help. Yet somehow the first cell managed to assemble the information storing and retrieving, energy metabolism, biosynthesis, enzymes, control systems, replication, cell division and more! A belief in serendipity and the power of large numbers aren’t enough. So I turn the tables: I can have faith in God acting through evolution or guiding it. How do you handle it?

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

@Agauger

The only real fools are those who think the DI is pushing a legitimate scientific idea or that there is a legitimate major controversy over evolutionary theory in science.

Well, not an acknowledged legitimate controversy. It does get raised every now and again by people like me:

That seems like a fair compromise.

@Agauger

Here’s what I have trouble with: evolutionary biologists’ faith in what amounts to providence. Organisms have to solve real, specific problems. If a cell needs a polymerase to copy DNA, ATP synthase won’t help. Yet somehow the first cell managed to assemble the information storing and retrieving, energy metabolism, biosynthesis, enzymes, control systems, replication, cell division and more! A belief in serendipity and the power of large numbers aren’t enough. So I turn the tables: I can have faith in God acting through evolution or guiding it. How do you handle it?

Well I can handle it too, with God’s providence. I suppose atheists have to rely on the weak anthropic principle?

[Patrick]

@Agauger

"I can know perfectly what a cell is made up of, but how it works deep down, what really is the dynamism that makes it move—that is, life—I don’t know. A refrigerator and a car are complex structures that move, but only with an immense amount of energy from the outside. Life, in its deepest essence, remains something that escapes us. Life is more than molecules.”

Fully agree with this. What a wonderful life it would be to be here when we find out.