Welcome rtmcdge

Not necessary, no. We don’t have to show things occur to have other ways of knowing that they did. You yourself presumably agree with this, since you believe God supernaturally created the entire universe yet nobody was present to witness this. As such you must believe there is at least one other way of inferring past events besides directly re-creating them in the present. And you must agree that some inferences about the past, are better supported or otherwise more reasonable, or more likely true, or better approximates what really happened, than others. You wouldn’t accept just any and all interpretations as equally valid or well-supported. That means you think there are ways of making better or worse inferences about the past, and it isn’t just nothing but empty interpretations without evidence.

An analogy to historical inference is forensic science, where investigators try to recreate how accidents or crimes took place without directly seeing them occur. Inference to the best explanation is a valid form of reasoning about the past. Hypotheses can predict patterns that can be compared to data.

This thing with “observed occurrences” is simply not a good reason to reject a historical inference. I observed none of the craters on the moon form. I still know they’re impact craters.

If I have a kid that loves cookies and the cookie jar is empty, the hypothesis that my kid ate the cookies can make testable predictions. I can find chocolate and crumbs on his shirt, for example. I’ve still not seen him eat the cookies, but I’ve found evidence that he did. And I can conclude, entirely reasonably, that he probably ate the cookies. More reasonably than the idea the cookies magically disappeared all by themselves.

The fact is that we can know certain events in history occurred without having directly witnessed them. We can do that by postulating explanations for a body of facts, and by that same explanation making testable predictions we can compare to future observations. One of those explanations is the theory of common descent, postulated to explain a large body of facts. It also made lots of empirical predictions long before the technology to test them was invented. I have already given examples.

So you’re just wrong at a really basic epistemological level. You have this obviously wrong idea that we need to see something happen in real time otherwise it’s just a story and all stories are seemingly baseless conjectures, with no way to rationally or evidentially discriminate among them. But there is. They can make predictions, we can compare them to observations, and in that way we can support theories that explain historical events we can no longer re-create.

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You are attempting to read in what is not in the quote. He and Eldredge both concocted an explanation as to why they were not finding the predicted transitional fossils.

By not acknowledging this fact, you are impeding honest discourse.

"
“The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary trees that adorn our text- books have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils. Yet Darwin was so wedded to gradualism that he wagered his entire theory on a denial of this literal record:

“The geological record is extremely imperfect and this fact will to a large extent explain why we do not find interminable varieties, connecting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by the finest graduated steps, He who rejects these views on the nature of the geological record, will rightly reject my whole theory.”

Darwin’s argument still persists as the favored escape of most paleontologists from the embarrassment of a record that seems to show so little of evolution. In exposing its cultural and methodological roots, I wish in no way to impugn the potential validity of gradualism (for all general views have similar roots). I wish only to point out that it was never -seen- in the rocks.

Paleontologists have paid an exorbitant price for Darwin’s argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life’s history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we never see the very process we profess to study.
[Evolution’s Erratic Pace - “Natural History,” May, 1977]”
― Stephen Jay Gould
Source: Quote by Stephen Jay Gould: “The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the...”

So, you want to compare quotes. My quotes are from numerous scientists, with many from actual evolutionists, some from some who used to be evolutionists, and they ARE ALL SAYING THE SAME THING.

"In 1977 Gould wrote,

‘The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology. … to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we never see the very process we profess to study.’5

In 1980 Gould said,

‘The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution.’6
Source: https://creation.com/gould-grumbles-about-creationist-hijacking

" > ‘“I had no premonition about the hubbub that punctuated equilibrium would generate,” Professor Gould said. Some “absurdly-hyped popular accounts” proclaimed the death of Darwinism, with punctuated equilibrium as the primary assassin, he says.

‘“Our theory became the public symbol and stalking horse for all debate within evolutionary theory. Moreover, since popular impression now falsely linked the supposed ‘trouble’ within evolutionary theory to the rise of creationism, some intemperate colleagues began to blame Eldredge and me for the growing strength of creationism.”

“Thus, we stood falsely accused by some colleagues both for dishonestly exaggerating our theory to proclaim the death of Darwin (presumably for our own cynical quest for fame), and for unwittingly fostering the scourge of creationism as well,” he said.

‘Not every scientist, however, would agree that Professor Gould was innocent in the dispute…’

Perhaps this explains the vitriolic denunciations of creationists since the 1981 Arkansas trial—Gould endeavouring to close ranks with other materialists, to repair the breach, to prove that he is just as caustic in his criticism of creationists as any of his colleagues in a competition to be ‘more anti-creationist than thou’. There is nothing like a common enemy to bring solidarity.

Gould protests about popular accounts that used PE to proclaim the death of Darwinism, but these accounts often simply reflected the enthusiasm Gould portrayed for his ideas on PE as an alternative to standard Darwinism. He was indeed proclaiming the death of orthodox (neo-) Darwinism. In recent years Gould and Eldredge have moderated their claims from PE being a new theory to replace gradualism to being an additional concept to be added to the grab bag of evolutionary tools used to ‘explain’ all and sundry observations. Evolutionist Levinton recognized this change, saying in response to Gould and Eldredge’s review of PE8 published in 1993:

‘Gould and Eldredge have devolved their claims of punctuation from an “alternative” to being “complementary” [to gradualism].’9

Also, Ernst Mayr, whom Gould critiqued as a representative of gradualism, dismissed Gould’s ideas as merely a variant of his own theory of allopatric speciation (i.e. geographical isolation leading to reproductive isolation).

The addition of PE to the evolutionist’s tool kit makes evolution even more untestable than ever as a pretender to be a scientific theory. Darwin predicted gradualism in the fossils. After 110 years of pretending that the fossils would be found, evolutionists were forced by Gould and Eldredge (mainly) to face up to the evidence. The transitional fossils had not been found. This contradicted the most basic prediction of Darwinism. It should have meant the death of the idea, if it were truly a scientific theory. However, Darwinism is part of the atheist / materialist worldview. Richard Dawkins, a vigorous critic of Gould, said that Darwinism made atheism intellectually respectable.10 On this point they undoubtedly agree. Karl Popper, the philosopher of science, said, ‘Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical [i.e., religious] research programme…’.11 As a well-known current philosopher of science, Michael Ruse, said,

‘Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion—a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. … Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.… Evolution therefore came into being as a kind of secular ideology, an explicit substitute for Christianity.’12

This is especially significant because Ruse had also testified with the ACLU in the same trial as Gould, and at that time dismissed the idea that evolution was religion."
Source: https://creation.com/gould-grumbles-about-creationist-hijacking

Now, stop trying to kick a dead horse. Give up on your idol worship of Darwin and universal common descent, and find something else to hang your hopes on.

Now apply this to your claim that scripture is God’s word. And if you are honest about it, you will admit that you have no evidence for that claim.

Similarly, there were no human around to record any creation event, and there were no humans around to record any flood event.

If you honestly applied your own view of evidence, you would reject your scripture as fiction.

This is false.

No, this is not the understanding.

But let’s give you some credit. You have refuted a version of the story of evolution.

It just happens that no actual evolutionary biologist believes the version that you have refuted. So you have completely wasted your time. And, for that matter, you have wasted the time of people at this site.

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About what?

But, we are not talking about whether life was created or not. We are talking about whether or not universal common descent is a plausible cause for how the diversity of life came to be as it is.
And the answer is no.
They can not make a protocell. Thus, they are unable to demonstrate that one evolved from chemicals, that it could have evolved into a more complex cell, that it could have evolved into a single celled organism or that some single celled organism could have begun formulating multicelled organisms.
Now, once you admit that there is more disputing universal common descent evolution, then we can talk about if God did it or not.

Gould is testifying in a court of law. He is being as clear as he can be that creationists are misrepresenting him.

He thought there were transitional forms. He literally, directly, and unambiguously states that he thinks there is.

http://www.antievolution.org/projects/mclean/mva_tt_p_gould.html

A There is another sense of gaps in the record claiming, in other words, there are not transitional forms whatsoever in the fossil record. It’s, in fact, patently false.
Indeed, on page 643, if you consult the chart, we do display an evolutionary trend here on the right, and evolutionary trends are very common in the fossil record. Punctuate equilibrium does not propose to deny it. By evolutionary trends, we mean the existence of intermediate forms, structurally intermediate forms between ancestors in the sense that we don’t have every single set, and we find transitional forms like that very abundant in the fossil record.

These quotes aren’t going to go away. You’re misrepresenting Gould.

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I want to return to this point. Could you explain, in your own words, why scientists would think a phylogenetic tree is evidence for the bacterial ancestry of mitochondria? You call it “a speculation”, but scientists disagree that it’s just a speculation. How does the logic of phylogenetic inference work? Can you state that in your own words?

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About your claim that scripture is God’s word.

But we get it. You evaded that question because you have no evidence to support it.

If you can come here and question our beliefs, then we should be able to question your beliefs. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I am questioning your beliefs in creation, on the basis of the view of evidence that you have provided. And on your view of evidence, your beliefs do not hold up.

Of course you tried to change the subject. But that’s only an admission that you cannot support your own beliefs on the basis of your own view of evidence.

Notice that they also all took quite a while to happen, far beyond the lifetime of any one person, and in fact longer than humans have been watching. So why do you demand to see something that evolutionary biology doesn’t expect to see? That’s called a strawman.

That’s a fundamental misconception of science. We can’t see the event itself, but we can see evidence the event left behind, and that should be good enough. As I said before but you ignored, do you believe that an oxygen atom has 8 protons? But nobody has ever seen an oxygen atom or any of its protons. So how can you know about that?

No, universal common descent didn’t cause fossilization, but I can suppose what you’re trying to say. And yes, that’s good evidence of descent, not just a guess.

Wouldn’t help anyway. These things are much too slow for a video to show. Fortunately, evidence doesn’t have to be in video form.

Not true at all. The data constrain what hypotheses are possible. That’s how science works: you compare your hypotheses to the data and pick the one that fits better than any others. In the case of the data we’re talking about, that hypothesis is common descent. Unfortunately, the creationist videos you use exclusively don’t show you anything of the process of science or how the data can be analyzed. I could introduce you to some of that, if you care.

That doesn’t work, since it’s a prediction of both evolution and creation.

That doesn’t work, because it’s a prediction of both evolution and creation. I will also point out that “kind” has no meaning in science, and if it has meaning for you, that has never become clear. How different do two species have to be before you think they’re different kinds?

I’ve seen that happen many times. I’ve even eaten some. But you’re imagining something silly, like a Velociraptor egg hatching into a chicken. Not how evolution works, though I suppose Gunter Bechly thinks so.

No, it’s not at all. The only people who have that understanding are a few nuts, like Bechly.

Why, because I have indeed supplied such quotes, as have other people.

I say I’m not going to watch a lengthy video just to find whatever brief statement you’re misunderstanding there. Tell me exactly where it happens or transcribe the relevant bit. Then we’ll talk.

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This is neither here or there. I’ve supplied his quotes. More than one, and there are more.
He specifically said the reason why he and Eldredge developed their PE concoction was because they were not finding the transitional fossils.
You haven’t a leg to stand on.
Misrepresenting???
You are lying to yourself. There is no misrepresentation. You are falsely accusing me.
I’ve supplied the quotes. I’ve supplied quotes from other evolutionists.
You have read them.
Now, at face value, you tell me how else I am supposed to receive these quotes.
And when you look at the many other scientists who are rejecting universal common descent error, I have good reason to reject it also.,

I am disturbed by how you can ignore the truth this casually.

Why are you here? What are you trying to accomplish?

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I’m ignoring nothing. You are. Are you even paying attention. I’ve provided actual quotes. I supplied more than one. I can supply more.

And I’ve asked you to read these quotes and tell me at fact value how else these quotes should be taken.
Especially, in light of the many scientists who disagree with universal common descent.
Especially when YOU CAN NOT SUPPLY, ANY MODERN DAY EXAMPLE DEMONSTRATING UNIVERSAL COMMON DESCENT OCCURRING PRESENTLY.

And what does the reason my being here have to do with you providing evidence.

You have the quotes I have provided. You are aware of the fact that he has disputed the existence of hard physical transitional fossils more than once.
I have provided a few other quotes from other evolutionists who also testify to the lack of transitional fossils.

It’s time you admit your error, and go back to the drawing board, and find out just where life did come from, and stop hiding under universal common descent.

And yet you just ignored the quotes of Gould I and others have brought, wherein he explains he thinks the fossil record supports gradual evolutionary change, that there are transitional fossils showing this, and that he thinks creationists are misrepresenting him. He even stated it under oath in a court of law.

What you are saying does not take the bite out of what he said in the quotes provided.
So, at best, he is seen waffling.
And when you compare this to other at one time evolutionists and then other scientists, it clearly shows that Gould’s and Eldredge’s criticism was is sound.

You have no leg to stand on.

I will take that as you finally conceding you were misrepresenting Gould.

You can now proceed to post the video four more times.

You are showing you are not interested in discourse. If you have evidence that I can respond to, then supply it. If not, please don’t waste my time.

irony-meter

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You are forming the wrong conclusion. As I’ve said, I’ve supplied quotes from Gould that stated he felt there must be another reason why transitional fossils were not found. I’ve presented where he states PE was developed to answer why the transitional fossil weren’t being found.
So, stop being like the Emperor that refused to acknowledge that he was not wearing new clothes.

No. Once again. Gould is testifying in a court of law. He is being as clear as he can be that creationists are misrepresenting him.

He thought there were transitional forms. He literally, directly, and unambiguously states that he thinks there is.

http://www.antievolution.org/projects/mclean/mva_tt_p_gould.html

A There is another sense of gaps in the record claiming, in other words, there are not transitional forms whatsoever in the fossil record. It’s, in fact, patently false.
Indeed, on page 643, if you consult the chart, we do display an evolutionary trend here on the right, and evolutionary trends are very common in the fossil record. Punctuate equilibrium does not propose to deny it. By evolutionary trends, we mean the existence of intermediate forms, structurally intermediate forms between ancestors in the sense that we don’t have every single set, and we find transitional forms like that very abundant in the fossil record.

These quotes aren’t going to go away. You’re misrepresenting Gould.

And once again, Gould was talking alone to his peers. He stated what he stated.
And here is a paleontologist clarifying what Gould was actually saying

For what statement?