Welcome to Terrell Clemmons: Questions on Methodological Naturalism

OK.

This is difficult, because for the most part the leaders of TE/EC, whether at BioLogos, or in the ASA, or elsewhere, tend to remark on the origin of life less often than they remark on evolution, and when they do remark on it, their statements are incomplete, oblique, etc. Even when one asks them directly what they think, they often choose not to answer or to give an ambiguous answer. So one has to reconstruct what they have in mind.

Let’s take one point. On BioLogos, a number of columns by Applegate, Ard Louis, and others, placed great emphasis on the creative powers of “randomness.” Usually this was in the context of evolution rather than the origin of life, but the way the argument was made, the logic would apply to the origin of life as well.

So, for example, Kathryn Applegate would argue from the fact that the immune system made use of randomness (a fact which Behe not only accepted, but even stressed, writing about it at length in one of his books), that the immune system could have been produced by randomness (i.e., random changes could have taken creatures which had not even the beginnings of an immune system to creatures like us who have a highly sophisticated one). In other words, random mutations not only modify systems, providing little improvements which natural selection can work on, but are capable of creating previously non-existent highly complex machinery. Might she also, then, suppose that random shufflings of simpler molecules could, over time, produce more and more stable arrangements, resulting in pre-DNA self-replicating molecules, early membranes suited to eventually become cell walls, and so on?

It’s hard to say for sure, since she doesn’t explicitly address it. But the general line of argument in all her columns and remarks on randomness is that really sophisticated means-adjusted-to-ends systems can arise from the rearrangement of unconscious molecules, genes, etc. which are not working according to any plan or design, but simply reacting to natural forces. When you couple that with the fact that she seems to take the general line that God seems to work through natural causes rather than through breaking natural laws, it seems likely that she inclines toward a wholly naturalistic origin of life. But again, it’s hard to be sure, since neither spontaneously, nor when asked in public on BioLogos, will she answer questions of that sort.

Of course, I hasten to add that she would never endorse position #3 in its naked form, i.e., there was no plan at all. She would say that God had something to do with the fact that the chance events produced the first life. She likes to drop the word “providential” into her writing, as if she conceives that it somehow tempers a description based wholly on random natural events. But the role of God in her conception of evolution is vague, and I would guess that the role of God in her conception of the origin of life would be vague as well. I can easily imagine her writing something like, “Through the providence of God, molecules which have no intention of forming life serve his divine purposes,” or the like. But that leaves open the question why such a low-probability event should happen, unless God is slightly biasing the outcome by subtle divine coaxing – a non-naturalistic suggestion she and her colleagues don’t seem very wild about.

A problem that plagues any attempt to understand TE writing in this area is the fact that TE writers regularly conflate “design” with “supernatural intervention.” So, for example, Dennis Venema thinks he has found one scientific article that refutes Stephen Meyer’s claim that the arrangement of nucleotide bases along the DNA chain is arbitrary; the article says that there may be a slight inclination of one of the bases to favor a certain kind of attachment. In other words, not an arbitrary miraculous action of God, but a natural-law bias, may be responsible to some extent for the ordering of the bases. But aside from the fact that this bias, if it exists, could only explain a fraction of any any arrangement, it really only refutes only the idea of miraculous action, not the idea of design; for any natural bias restricting the order of attachment of the bases might well be a designed bias, planned by an intelligent mind as the laws of gravity, magnetism, etc. are planned. In other words, even if the origin of life occurs naturally, the way things fall together might be designed.

In fact, Venema’s objection, if taken to its logical end, might well incline Venema to position #2 rather than position #3, i.e., that the origin of life was cleverly set up by God to occur through wholly natural means. But because he only deals with the subject of origin of life in fits and starts, it’s hard to say.

His best opportunity for giving his own view on the origin of life came when he wrote several BioLogos columns attacking Meyer’s first book, Signature in the Cell. Since Meyer’s book was about the origin of life, one would think that Venema would have offered his own alternative proposal for the origin of life. But instead, he simply concentrated on negating what Meyer said, never presenting his own view. Further, Venema’s critique overwhelmingly focuses on things Meyer said (mainly in the Appendix, not even in the body of the work!) about evolution, and largely ignores what Meyer argued regarding the origin of life! Most of Meyer’s 500 pages of argument that the origin of life requires design is left untouched.

So one is left at a loss to know Venema’s mind, in exactly the place where one would expect to find his view on the origin of life explicitly stated. All we can deduce is that Venema thinks that Meyer’s thesis – that the origin of life required design – is wrong. So the most natural conclusion is that Venema would go for something like #3 – primitive molecules don’t need any design or plan in order to form life; it can happen by accident. But then, of course, Venema is Christian and wouldn’t say that God had nothing to do with it. So what would be the view, then, that chance is a sufficient cause, from a scientific point of view, but as a person of faith Venema thinks that God somehow, in some mysterious way, had something to do with the outcomes?

So we are left in puzzlement about Venema’s overall position: could accidental chemical reactions, without miracles or designed setups, have produced the first life? Or would it have required at least some designed setup of nature, though no miracles? We simply can’t tell what his position is, if he has a position, or what his inclination is, if he has an inclination.

The same could be said, mutatis mutandis, of just about everyone who has ever written for BioLogos. The question of the origin of life is rarely directly addressed, and when it is mentioned, it is quickly skirted, with only a few vague ideas quickly tossed out – randomness is powerfully creative, God’s providence is involved even if there is no design, it’s just as noble and maybe nobler for God to create life through natural causes as through miracles, etc.

Nobody’s criticizing the BioLogos people for not having a full-blown theology and science of the origin of life. It’s a difficult scientific and theological question. But it’s surprising how incoherent and uninformative the thoughts of all its management and columnists on the subject are, given that they have been writing columns and ASA articles and books on faith and science issues, on evolution and creation, etc. for years and in some cases decades now. One would think they could manage some provisional, tentative views, set forth with some intellectual clarity. Not even as an official BioLogos position, but just a as a set of individual statements of individual Christian scientists. But one can’t find any affirmative statements. One finds only rejections of arguments that design must have been involved.

In contrast, those ID folks who are Christian (and most ID folks are Christian, though some are Jews, Muslims, Deists, agnostics, etc.) very unambiguously assert that design (not necessarily miracles, but design) was necessary for the first life. And that makes vague appeals to providence unnecessary, because when a Christian says that life was designed, he means that God designed it. The plan, the order, the structure, came from the mind of God, not from chance, randomness, etc. Natural causes (including “random” events) may well have been involved in the implementation of the design, but the design was a thought in God’s mind.

If I heard TE leaders clearly saying things like this, I could much more easily relax when they wax eloquent about the marvelous creative powers of randomness and chance, about how chemical evolution could have produced the first life, etc. But the palpable resistance in their writing to the term “design” (and to the religious and theological concepts to which it points) makes me nervous. In fact, it would have made any Christian living, up to about 30 years ago, nervous. This position, this stance of “We believe in a Creator, but we don’t like calling him a designer or saying that he had definite ends in mind regarding biological outcomes,” is, to use an evolutionary metaphor, a new mutation of Christian thought, and in my view a “deleterious” one.

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That nails the mystery of God’s providence. How he does it is beyond our ken, because all we can see is the ‘natural’. But an event or groupings and sequences of events take on meaning or function that is above the physical details of what transpired. Since God does it in his people’s lives, and we justifiably infer meaning (and hence design) in his acting into our lives, we can do the same in biology and cosmology, as well as several other disciplines.

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I just want to say a public “Thank you” to @Eddie for taking the time to string out the philosophical problems with TE/EC and to anyone else who is thoughtfully engaging with the problems he’s elucidating. I think the fact that this thread has gotten so long speaks to the difficulty of said problems.

Since this entire discussion is a continuation of one that began on Facebook and was transferred here by @dga471, and since said problems pertain to the OP, I’d like to add in here a few questions from the Facebook thread, only slight re-worded to make terminology consistent with this discussion (*note: the OP related to an article on BioLogos, but equally pertains to TE/EC more broadly):

Q1: As I see it, BioLogos’s and TE/EC understanding of science and interpretation of evidence from the natural world is indistinguishable from a philosophical naturalist’s. If not, what is the difference?

Q2: In what sense does BioLogos harmonize science with Christianity? As far as BioLogos or TE/EC is concerned, God is not detectable, knowable, or even in the category of being a possible inference or cause of anything. All of the reasoning is restricted to naturalism as a prior philosophical commitment, and so the natural sciences define the boundaries by which truth claims about reality are confirmed or disconfirmed. Christianity contributes exactly nothing to pool of knowledge that is being sought by BioLogos, and indeed it never can. Its most significant truth claims fall outside the purview of BioLogos’s epistemology. So, in what sense does BioLogos harmonize science with Christianity?

Q3: What does any of BioLogos’s work or TE/EC more broadly have to do with orthodox Christianity? This is not a rhetorical question, I’m honestly asking, hoping for a thoughtful answer. BioLogos and TE/EC are concerned strictly with that which is empirically verifiable according to the methods of the natural sciences. It’s fine for science to be done that way. Christians can certainly do science this way. So can anyone else. But why have a scientific organization approaching science this way specifically categorized as Christian? Christianity has exactly nothing to do with the practice of its science. What is the reason for its existence, and why should orthodox Christians want to get on board with it as something that falls under the purview of Christianity? Richard Dawkins has explained why atheists welcome this development. I’m asking why Christians should.

I am not questioning the Christian faith of scientists associated with BioLogos or adherents of TE/EC. Nor am I questioning how well they do science. I am questioning what their epistemology concerning how they do science has to do with orthodox Christianity. It appears to me that it has exactly noting to do with it.

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How would a design inference help in the study of inherited cardiomyopathies?

It’s worth noting that Stephen Meyer, one of the highest priests of ID, predicted that the majority of the mutations that cause it would result in embryonic lethality, so at least his inference wouldn’t be very useful at all.

Christianity promotes honesty, something that is highly valued in science.

I’d say that depends entirely on your definition of “orthodox.”

Because of Culture Warriors like you and Eddie.

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Yes, that’s fair. Do you identify as Christian, and if so, what do you understand to be the basic essentials of Christian faith that define orthodoxy? Just in common, simple language.

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Yes, I do, but I’m asking for YOUR definition. It’s not fair for you to demand mine first. You’ve already offered the term as what appears to be an essential parameter.

That was two questions, and the second was conditional.

Asking a question amounts to making a demand? And to be clear, your comment did not have a question in it. But I’m happy to answer the question, anyway. The essentials imo are the following:

Origins: A supernatural, self-existing God exists and created the entire universe, including human life created in his image.
Problem: Humans rebelled against God.
Remedy: Jesus Christ, God incarnate, entered the natural world as a human to provide reconciliation to God for those who recognize their sin, repent, and want to be reconciled. He predicted his own death and resurrection and then it happened just as he said. This historical event verified his claims about his identity.

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So “orthodox” Christianity has zero to do with following the teachings of Jesus Christ? The mind boggles.

I define Christianity more by the teachings of Jesus, primarily:
Take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.

Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?” The King will reply, “Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.” (Matthew 25:34-40)

I just don’t get why Christianity has to be more complex than that, particularly being larded down with the politics of opposing homosexuality, abortion, and evolution, three things that if the Bible is to be believed, Jesus didn’t deem worthy of mention.

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Do you identify as Christian, John?

Okay, sorry, I missed this the first time through. I was confused since you said you had asked me a question, and I couldn’t find the question.

So, if I’m understanding you correctly, you do identify as Christian. If you disagree with any specific point in my 3-point, Origin, Problem, Remedy way of stating it, I’d be interested to hear that.

Those matters you raise about honesty and behavior and political issues are important discussion topics, but they don’t pertain to the question at hand. The question had to do with a particular way of integrating science, with science being strictly limited to methodological naturalism, and Christianity. None of those topics you raise have anything to do with methodological science.

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I think your questions should be split into a different thread.

I want to emphasize again that @dga471 (I think) and I are not in the EC and TE camp even though we affirm evolution. As @Eddie agreed, I evade these objections. This should make clear that any disagreement with BioLogos, EC or TE, is not about science, but things brought along with their science, or at least the perception of these things.

I want to keep this straight, because even if the EC approach is not palatable, this is not reason to suspect evolutionary science as the cause. I affirm evolutionary science while avoiding those pitfalls, whether they be perceived or real.

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So, just to be clear, I have never read Applegate nor Venema on these specific issues, and am just assuming for the purposes of this reply that your summary is mostly accurate.

1. Applegate and Randomness

[ellipses mine]:

Several comments:

  1. It seems to me that confusion is arising from the use of the word “random”, which as I noted in my post above doesn’t necessarily indicate ontological randomness, especially when we’re talking about biology. Thus, when a biologist like Applegate says that something is “produced by randomness,” this looks more like a misunderstanding of the use of terms between scientists and theologians, rather than a fundamental theological error. Nothing of what Applegate is saying implies that God has little control over the random and/or probabilistic aspects of many biological phenomena.
  2. If one believes that the evolution of “highly complex machinery” can be explained by only invoking biological randomness and natural mechanisms, why does that imply that there is no “plan” or “design” behind these things? Instead of focusing on evolution, I would again go to a more mundane example. We can explain the spectral lines of hydrogen by recourse to only quantum mechanics - purely “natural” mechanisms. Does that mean there is no plan or design behind the mechanisms?

Regarding point 2, one possibility is that you think that a properly thought-out plan must involve no randomness at all. First, this is not necessarily obvious; even very well thought-out human plans are never fully certain and often involve “playing the dice” a few times until it is certain that one gets a certain outcome. In fact, @AndyWalsh has suggested that that God’s providence could work similar to how some phenomena are chaotic, yet still stay within certain mathematical limits. Secondly, once again, there is no reason to think that biological randomness implies ontological randomness. God could be using biological randomness in a yet-undiscovered way to precisely reflect His will.

2. Supernatural Intervention and Singling Out OOL

Perhaps, but I would also say that ID proponents seem to be ambiguous about what “design” exactly is, and how it is “inserted” into nature, which contributes to the confusion. Now, I might be completely wrong as I don’t read a lot of ID literature, but ID proponents seem to spend a lot of time arguing for the insufficiency of evolutionary mechanisms. Not as much time is devoted to explaining design itself, or what exactly constitutes purpose.

Perhaps it could be the case that he genuinely is agnostic about the matter, but he does not want to create the impression that OOL research is any different than matter/antimatter asymmetry or high temperature superconductors. We don’t talk about design in those matters, so why should OOL be any different? (Perhaps this is the point where we should come back to matter of what role is played by specific interpretations of Scripture.)

Now, I cannot guess Venema’s frame of mind, and I probably would express my own position somewhat differently, but I can understand with the desire to avoid elevating OOL or evolution as specific scientific research areas which are “more likely” to contain “miraculous” elements.

Do you see how misleading it is to single out the “first life”? It implies that the “first life” is special in such a way that some special kind of divine guidance (perhaps you could call it an “intervention” or “miracle”, or not) is required. It also might imply that science will fail in explaining OOL in purely naturalistic terms. But as I take it, you have no scientific nor philosophical reason to believe why this is the case. The main argument you have is scriptural, and those are notoriously subject to a lot of disagreement even among orthodox Christians.

3. The Responsibility of Christian Scientists

I think many people (here at least) agree that many Christian scientists focus too much on the science and neglect to carefully consider how it fits in philosophically and theologically (see: Christians in Science: Irony, Tragedy, and Possibility). And based on your comments I would agree that it would be good for them to be more careful when using terms like “random” and “design”. But this is also perhaps a reason why we shouldn’t take their statements about such terms too literally, and or believe that they some latent heretical views.

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@Eddie it seems far to ask why this matters? With all due respect to Kathryn, who is a kind and thoughtful scientist, has anyone taken this series of posts? How long ago are they from? Why single her out?

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In fairness, I had asked @Eddie about examples of TE leaders who endorse the view that there is no “design” at all in nature.

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Actually, the questions I am raising, and I think @Eddie is elucidating, aren’t about science, per se, or Christianity, per se. The questions are about a particular way of attempting to integrate the two.

I’m fine if this gets split off into a different thread, but perhaps this has gone on long enough for individuals to have arrived at their own places about where they are on it. For those who don’t identify as Christian, the questions are irrelevant. For Christians, the questions remain from the very beginning OP for them to decide whether they’re going to grapple with them or evade them.

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I assume Genesis chapter 3 refers to the Fall, and Romans 8:18-21 is as follows:

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Of course, as a Christian, I can accept this theological explanation. But it is certainly not a scientific one. At most we can say that Scripture teaches that the world is good in some ways to enable us to live in a way that is pleasing to God, but also that there is some brokenness and suffering due to the Fall. Nothing in Scripture specifies how exactly the world should be good, and what kind of brokenness should we expect. We need actual empirical science (i.e. general revelation) to find that out. What Scripture gives us is an overarching framework to understand the meaning and significance of what we’re doing in science.

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Of course it isn’t. It wasn’t meant to be. I didn’t see the question as a scientific one, but as an existential one that I didn’t want anyone to be left wondering about. The problem of evil and suffering in the world is a very common reason given for rejecting belief in a good God. I just didn’t want to leave that question hanging.

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@Eddie you quote Kathryn Applegate likes she is some kind of Nobel prize winning scientist or a deep thinking theologian. Kathryn is a very nice person, a mom of two, has a PhD in Computational Cell Biology but hasn’t work in the scientific field since 2010. She has a three days a week part-time job at Biologos (24 hr/wk $54,000 salary according to form 990). Why quote her? What’s next are you going to berate Beaglelady and/or Christy for not expounding on the philosophy foundations of Theistic Evolution?

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