Were Dragons Real?

So are you actually claiming that mythical creatures (animals which never actually existed) were never depicted alongside real ones in medieval art? Seriously?

Have you any formal study of art history?

Consult the peer-reviewed literature. Also, this is another Peaceful Forum topic you may find to be informative. (There is a search feature in the upper right of the PS webpages.) The Ta Prohm stegosaur is a great example of pareidolia. Indeed, until recent decades nobody saw “bony plates” in the temple engraving. They compared them to other engravings nearby and recognized them as large leaves over the animal. Meanwhile, paleontologists have noted that no stegosaurus had such plates in the arrangement depicted in the engraving. Yes, this popular YEC trope was discredited long ago and many of my YEC associates consider it an embarrassing argument for recent dinosaurs.

I have no objection to the descendants of dinosaurs living even today. We call them birds. We also see ancient Ginko trees surviving as modern day Ginko trees. And alligators have rightly been called “living fossils”. Some “living fossils” have been recognized for a long time now while others have probably yet to be discovered. (I doubt that the spectacular discovery of modern day coelacanth species will never be repeated for some other ancient taxa.)

Another logic fallacy. When your protasis is false, your apodosis is baseless. That’s how logic works.

False. If something exists in the fossil record, it existed in reality. (Yes, I intentionally included the ellipsis because reading the entire sentence in context did nothing to make your statement more logically valid.)

I used to preach and teach on “creation science” topics. So everything you are describing is well known to me because I used to diligently promote many of these same ideas. I had assumed that what I had been taught by people like John Whitcomb Jr. (whom I knew from my early career in Christian academia) was well evidenced. Indeed, it was my personal investigation of The Genesis Flood (1962, Henry Morris & John Whitcomb Jr.) footnotes which began my trek out of the young earth mindset.

Not at all. If you would like to start a thread based on any of those popular “101 Evidences for a Young Earth” lists from YEC websites, I would be happy to go through those most flagrant fallacies one by one.

I already provided two such popular examples. Both the history of Niagara Falls and the Mississippi delta sediments are entirely consistent with an old earth. So your rebuttal is glaringly invalid.

Newsflash: Coelacanthiformes are an entire taxonomic order of chordates. That is why they were “easily recognizable by scientists when they were caught!”

I assume that the trained biologists on this forum chuckled a bit when they read your “were they not?” challenge. A taxonomic order is not just a species or two! (Please look up Coelacanthiformes before commenting on them further. Learn the basics.)

No. It was because nobody had published any sighting of a modern day coelacanth it was entirely reasonable for scientists to assume that no coelacanth species had survived. What is your point?

This is the history of the progress of science. Hypotheses are regularly falsified as new data is compiled. If you are playing the popular trope that “Because scientists didn’t know something until a later discovery, science therefore can’t be trusted”, I’d refer you to some commonly assigned first year college science readings, such as Isaac Asimov’s “The Relativity of Wrong.”

He doesn’t seem to have realised that most of the people here accept evolution (and reject creationism) not because “everybody else does”, but because they’ve actually examined the claims and tracked down the original evidence (or lack thereof).

@PDPrice name 5 “evolutionists” who reject the dinosaur to bird transition.

Does he realize that most of the people who accept Young Earth Creationism (and reject evolution) do so because “everybody else does” in their peer group? I come from that Bible Belt community where Young Earth Creationism is extremely popular and I can certainly attest that very few reached that conclusion from examining the original evidence. It is a tribal identity marker for many.

I’m not demeaning this fact. We all as human beings tend to adopt all sorts of beliefs simply because “everybody else does.” It’s a part of being a social creature. We absorb community values. We inherit many beliefs from our parents. (Of course, absorbing ideas from our community doesn’t necessarily mean that those ideas are wrong. Indeed, we all learned things in elementary school without any effort to investigate or challenge them. We simply memorized and accepted them.)

Of course, one of the great advantages of the scientific method and modern science (which Christian philosophers of centuries past played major roles in developing) is that “everybody else does” no longer dominates the search for explanations and understanding. Peer-review constantly challenges and tests ideas.

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I am saying that there is no contextual reason to suggest they are mythological representations.

The Ta Prohm stegosaur is a great example of pareidolia. Indeed, until recent decades nobody saw “bony plates” in the temple engraving.

I don’t understand what that is supposed to prove. I have seen it and have examined a faithful reproduction close-up. Those are clearly not leaves. None of the other creatures surrounding it are similarly adorned with leaves in that way. Just as with the other example, this is just more hand-waving. Obviously it cannot be what it clearly appears to be, now can it?

Yes, this popular YEC trope was discredited long ago and many of my YEC associates consider it an embarrassing argument for recent dinosaurs.

Sorry, but just because people engage in hand-waving doesn’t mean it was ‘discredited’.

Another logic fallacy. When your protasis is false, your apodosis is baseless. That’s how logic works.

The coelocanth had been assumed to be extinct for millions of years. Not just because nobody saw one alive, but because it had dropped out of the fossil record millions of years ‘earlier’. You’re trying to dance around that point. Yet now we know they are not extinct. So that means that for millions of years coelocanths were swimming around and there is no fossil evidence of them in the record. That undermines the assumption that we can look at what was preserved in the fossil record and draw conclusions about what was, or was not, around at that ‘time’.

This is the history of the progress of science. Hypotheses are regularly falsified as new data is compiled.

Good. It’s about time that Darwinian fantasies got tossed out for the pseudoscience they really are. Unfortunately the rampant groupthink in modern academia is currently stifling the progress of good science.

I try to take you seriously but this right here tells me you are dogmatic and idealogic. Maybe modern evolutionary theory is wrong (it isn’t) But it is by no means pseudoscience. Guys, I don’t think this guy deserves any more of or attention.

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Then you should be able to provide evidence independent of the artwork the representations of real living animals. But you won’t because you’r making it up as you go.

LOL! It can’t possibly be science accepts evolution due to the huge quantty and quality of the evidence. Must be that Evil Atheist Conspiracy, Scientist Division. :slightly_smiling_face:

I’ll take it then that Wikipedia’s refusal to stop categorizing creation science as ‘pseudoscience’ is equally ‘dogmatic and idealogic [sic]’ in your view? Will you lobby for Wikipedia to stop defaming creation scientists as pseudoscientists?

http://paleo.cc/paluxy/stegosaur-claim.htm


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I dunno. It’s good to have a clueless yet arrogant Creationist come by every once in a while just to remind lurkers what Creationism is about.

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As soon as Creation “scientists” demonstrate what they produce isn’t pseudoscientific garbage refutable by a reasonably bright high school student.

This will turn into a philosophy of science discussion. I do think creation science is pseudoscience. But I will say this. It is way more scientific than intelligent design. Atleast a lot of young earther’s have developed models and tried to test ideas. So I do give credit to those who are actually trying to do it the right way.

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I’ve seen this guy on reddit before (r/creation and r/debateevolution). His performance here didn’t surprise me.

Ok, then you have a double standard. You reserve the right to use this word to categorize creationists whom you disagree with, but if those same people turn this word back on evolution you want to cry foul and say it’s ‘dogmatic’.

More of the same. Anybody can choose to highlight features they want to home in on and downplay or hand-wave over features that don’t fit. I don’t see those bony-looking protrusions as being ‘decorative leaves’ or whatever. They clearly follow the contour of the back as if they are part of the organism, and again we don’t find any other examples in the other carvings of similar ‘leaf’ designs.

Uh no. I look at each field and their philosophical underpinnings independently.

This is why Creation “science” is pseudoscience.

Any questions?

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Another shining example of the Creationist Jigsaw Puzzle fallacy. :slightly_smiling_face:

Leaves depicted behind the animal would also appear to “follow the contour of the back” if they were deliberately framing the animal. The other carvings have backgrounds, why not this one? The interpretation of a “stegosaur” from this carving is even weaker than the Bishop Bell “sauropods”. The body of the animal doesn’t resemble a stegosaur in the slightest.

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Please look up pareidolia.

Again, the engraving looks nothing like any stegosaur paleontologists have ever identified. Cambodian locals think it depicts either a wild boar or a rhinosaurus.

PDPrice:

Sorry, but just because people engage in hand-waving doesn’t mean it was ‘discredited’.

The paleontologists who have dissected the details of the engraving are not handwaving. The art experts who have examined the Cambodian temple engravings are not handwaving. Are you sure you understand what the term handwaving means? Have you never noticed that this popular YEC trope is nothing but handwaving? Has it ever survived peer-review?

PDPrice:

Unfortunately the rampant groupthink in modern academia is currently stifling the progress of good science.

So you are resorting to the “grand conspiracy theory” characterization of science academia? Seriously?

Tell us about your personal experience in modern academia. How did you determine that it is riddled with rampant “groupthink?” I will certainly admit that scientists have human characteristics—just like everyone else—but anyone who has ever attended an academic conference will tell you that disagreement and even conflict is pretty common. And there’s no better way to advance one’s career than to successfully demonstrate under peer review that what everyone else thought was the best explanation for something was actually invalid.

Meanwhile, I have a question for you: Is there rampant groupthink in Young Earth Creationist circles, especially within the major origins ministry organizations? Or do only scientists in academia suffer from this groupthink that you describe?

Would it be equally fair to say—using your own words and making just a few changes—that it’s about time that Young Earth Creationist “fantasies got tossed out for the pseudoscience they really are?”

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