What About Distant Starlight Models?

If God wanted us to think that the world is 4.5 billion years old, I’m sure he could set things up so that it really looks like that. I have no idea if and why he would want to do so, but I don’t think it is up to us to tell him that he couldn’t have done so.

Last Thursdayism is about appearance of age. Where did I propose that?

If one is going invoke the miraculous in a literal six-day Creation, this proposal is about the only way to do it and get it right in a physical sense. That would make your claim not only wrong, but profoundly wrong. This proposal may be precisely what the Bible is recording in the opening statements of Genesis.

This is confusing. That statement sounds like YEC. Is that what you intended?

Try again. You have no idea why he would do “what”? Be specific. And how did you misinterpret my statements to mean I was trying to tell God what to do?

If we agree that the Universe we see through our telescopes is 14 billion years old, then we could move on to evidence from geology.

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Actually, it doesn’t sound like YEC at all. This is my point - they could say this, but they don’t. They claim that the physical evidence confirms YEC while in reality it falsifies it. This is the hole they have dug for themselves.

I meant, why he would make the world look 4.5 billion years old when it is only 6000 years old. I wouldn’t know why he wouldn’t do that, if he wanted it.

Look, I understood you to suggest that ‘dasha’ wouldn’t work because it needs an infinite number of miracles:

“For Faulkner’s idea to have merit, it must not only get starlight to our location quickly via a miracle, it must invoke a miracle at every subsequent moment thereafter”

To which I say: And? So what? Why do you think that is forbidden? This is what seems to put a limitation on what God could or would do. My point is, if you allow even one miracle you have no real reason to disallow many more, so that argument against ‘dasha’ fails.

Now, my personal view is that there were no miracles at all, but that is beside the point. My point here is, I don’t understand why YEC people (who all accept the possibility of miracles) would disallow however many miracles it would take to make the world look just 6000 years old. The entire debate would vanish, and we would all happily go about our lives. Why are they so hung up about needing scientific support for their position?

What you are proposing seems to be real age, but real age created post hoc. It’s a weird proposal that makes no physical sense, but it’s like Last Thursdayism in God’s week, while it’s reality in the time of the universe.

I don’t think it’s even right in a physical sense. But what you’re doing here is fixing your understanding of Genesis to conform to science. YECs hate that sort of thing.

You mean it’s what the bible might have meant to say when it said something quite different. You’re basing your interpretation of Genesis on what science tells us. Still a no-no for YECs.

‘Dasha’ involves Creation Week and the miraculous bound up in that week.To continue to invoke miracles to get distant starlight (really, galactic light) to our section of the universe is forbidden outside of Creation Week. That, at least, is the prevalent YEC thought in the matter.

So says you. God probably thinks you are weird for not believing in him, too.

Big deal. Have you forgotten you are talking to me? I have YEC enemies all over the map.

Ok, fine. Maybe they will get over it.

Well, there you go. You have just placed limits on what God would do.

Anyone else think that Dasha sounds like just a slow motion “poof”?

Actually, it sounds like a dog’s name. A slow motion pooch, perhaps?

Well, you probably know geology, but not physics necessarily. Think physical galactic light for a moment. When we finally - after eons and eons - receive it, it contains a enormous amount of historic information. Now, think of dasha and think of how it proposes that light which just left a distant galaxy arrives at our location miraculously soon. What kind of historic information do you think that light contains?

Precisely as much as God wants it to.

I will tell you then. Dasha proposes a false history of the universe. Really, none of the list that Faulkner cites work for the goal YECs have in mind. That is the sad tale of it. Yet, even sadder, they continue to propagate them as if they have merit. Still sadder, when I try to get a word in edgewise and propose what may in fact be exactly the answer they are looking for, whaddya think I get from them? You guessed it, “Get out of here, we don’t need you”.

From where I am sitting that seems an odd complaint. YEC itself proposes a false history of the universe, if we believe that we can deduct that history from empirical scientific data (or, at the very least least rule out some potential histories from that data).

The moment you mix in God with the science, all bets are off. You may have theological reasons to prefer one version over another (I couldn’t possibly comment), but science isn’t going to help you one little bit anymore after that point.

What? Really? I just spent all morning offering a perfect “mix” as you call it, and you come back with this nonsense? You are not listening.

Obviously, I don’t believe he does.

No, but you’re a sort of YEC. You believe the universe was created in 6 days, 6000 years ago. You just think that happened in a special way that makes the universe 14 billion years old.

Which statements would those be?

Aha. Wait. I say those things to try and help YECs and yes, I am perfectly willing to accept that God may have in fact created 6000 years ago (that is, in earth Minkowski “now”). But I concede those things for YEC sake.

Keep in mind, I have no problem also believing that God could have created the universe at the top of Creation Day One 14 billion years ago, and when the time earth finally rotated for the first time on its axis, the first “evening and morning” passed and a very long Day 1 ended.

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Sadly, God didn’t create the earth on Day 1, and he didn’t create the sun and other stars until Day 4. You can’t fit the real sequence into Genesis unless you postulate all these creations in the proper order in real time but in the Genesis order in some special God-time.

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A pefect mix is still a mix, and it could even be explosive. It might be wiser to keep the two solutions entirely separate.