When Was The New Testament Written?

You misunderstand - copying errors are predictable, and found in NT manuscripts - and the nature and extent tell one both about who copied them and the “evolutionary” history of the text in these small details.

But the point is that nobody copies a text carefully if they’re simultaneously feeling free to improve it, add new stories, change the teaching for local purposes etc. You copy the tecxt as well as you can only if it is deemed to have some authority of its own, for example that it is a reliable account of events.

And that freedom to alter the text is what is often proposed as the explanation for everything from the resurrection to supposed myriads of now suppressed gospels.

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Let me explain this in evolutionary analogy.

We have those 20K NT manuscripts (and citations in lectionaries, apologetic literature, etc). Unlike the fossil record, each manuscript still has its “DNA” (the words), and so it’s possible to trace the phylogeny of each by textual criticism. We find the vast majority of changes are near-neutral point mutations. The relatively few “adaptive mutations” are attempts to tidy up difficult sentences, or occasionally to correct a locally perceived “doctrinal error.” New stories are almost unknown, the exception being the woman taken in adultery, which varies in its presence and position - suggesting an independently preserved tradition.

Nevertheless, over all 20K maunsuscripts, from 2nd century onwards, it remains clear that they all represent the same four species of gospel - there has not been the kind of divergence into legend (or anything else) so often claimed.

That means any “prehistory” must come not from the strong manuscript evidence, but from the single texts themselves - and there must be a prehistory, simply because the gospels are products in history. And also, there are clear literary similarities between the texts, which could reflect common events, and/or common traditions, and/or common documents.

In the nineteenth century, the aim was to trace lost documentary sources - hence the documentary hypothesis. There is little doubt that the “synoptics” (Matthew, Mark & Luke) form a very imperfect nested hierarchy - but the upshot is that, after 150 years of intense scholarship, consensus on the nature of that hierachy no longer exists. Mark may be first and used by the other two, but plenty of scholars maintain Matthean priority, and other variations. Even John shows evidence of more distant common ancestry.

Attempts to replacesource documents with “traditions” and “schools” are equally speculative, and likely to remain so. What we can say is:

(a) That the 4 existing “species” were almost certainly in their current form within 1 generation of the events they describe.
(b) That their divergences show they were not produced by a central authority creating an official mythos, whilst their mutual dependency shows their four authors substantially agreed on the history and were in mutual contact.
(b) They all show signs of familiarity with the time and place of those events, and no others. (Note that this differs from all the apocryphal gospels).
© The supernatural elements, such as the Resurrection in particular, show evidence of belonging to the earliest traceable layers of their composition, when they could most easily have been refuted.
(d) The manuscript and citation evidence shows that these four gospels, and no others, rapidly attained widespread acceptance in the Church.

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Well the KJV is certainly an embellishment on the older English text which is an embellishment on even older versions. Since language and culture is constantly changing over time and place, claiming you know what was meant by certain writings of certain era and localities is sheer speculation.

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Hi Patrick: I used to share that same perspective as you regarding this topic and I hear it repeated often. I no longer believe it though and here’s why… One of the most exciting things about living in this modern era is that we live in the age of the database. It is easy to imagine the versions as having been translated from A > B > C > D, and so on, such that the situation you describe (error compounding) would certainly occur. Because all identified ancient text can be entered into a database and analyzed, we are able to see how big the error bars actually are and if there is, in fact, an increase in errors over time.

My understanding, though, (it would be great to hear what @jongarvey and @deuteroKJ have to say) is that the translators would typically go back to the original text wherever possible in order to create new translations. However it occurred, there is now a means by which the translations can be compared against the originals, such that we do not need to speculate as to how accurate they are or were, but we can actually tell how accurate they are or were.

As a skeptic, knowing that the scriptures have not degraded over time (as would certainly be expected) has been very helpful in my own personal faith journey.

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We do have to admit though, that even though the scripture has not been as degraded over time as one would expect, there have been a few (very few) things that have been added in the 1940s.

The gist of it (be nice to people, love your neighboor,love your enemy, resurrection) remained the same though.

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So why isn’t there universal agreement on what scripture says?

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Interpretation. The fact that the Bible was translated from a now dead language (two actually) so a couple of the words are… tough.

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I don’t know what you refer to specifically, but the point that I was making is that it is understandable to assume that the errors would be numerous and compounded, and yet (because of the analysis that can be done) we know that this is not the case. The analysis can be done in the open, in a transparent way, such that all can see the evidence and come to their own conclusions about what they believe. Readers of the NT can digest the stories and be confident that they are substantially similar to the originals. Because of this, they are able to make a personal determination about who the person of Jesus Christ is.

This is huge for skeptics who otherwise would imagine that the text is completely unreliable and unworthy of even being considered.

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No, no, you misunderstand me, what I meant to say is that a couple of words were translated to fit our modern concept of those words, which is, in some cases a good thing, in some, a very, very bad thing.

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Yes, and of course it is an entirely different argument to say “The New Testament has changed over time” to saying (as Patrick now does), “You can’t translate an ancient text and know what it means.”

As everybody knows, all modern translations use the best scholarship to interpret a Greek text that is, as near as dammit, the original. Understanding another culture is a challenge, but that’s no different from translating a modern book from a Chinese original.

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correct. When the KJV was translated, there were available about 39 Greek NT manuscripts and essentially one Hebrew OT manuscript. Archaeology has now given us a wealth of riches (with some added conundrums, especially with the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls in 1947, which availed us to OT text traditions we weren’t aware of). The main point is: the new translations are more accurate than any earlier translation.

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This is a very good question Patrick. I feel as though there is a fairly universal agreement in terms of the majors, but there is much disagreement about the minors. I feel as though there is little disagreement about what it “says” but much more about what it “means.” It is ancient literature comprised of history, poetry, and imagery. Fortunately, the pursuit of the meaning is interesting, exciting, and can take a lifetime.

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I see what you mean… adding contemporary thought and such. Jesus is still on the throne!! That’s the important part, and unchanged for 2000 years. :slight_smile:

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Amen.

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But, we all must admit, that when we are on the outside looking in, it is quite intuitive to have that sort of opinion. I remember holding that same opinion once as well, and it made perfect sense to me at the time!

It is entirely the same for me when I read discussions here regarding evolution. I look, I read, I observe, and I decide that I still don’t see how this could have been the result of that process. So having this eclectic group of experts at hand to make sense of the process is so helpful to the process of understanding.

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And it’s worth pointing out that there were pretty decent Hebrew and Greek scholars on the KJV, translating direct from the best texts they had. They borrowed some decent turns of English phrase from those like William Tyndale because they worked so well.

And in the context of the question of “nobody knows what the original said” it must be said that the main problem from using the KJV even now isn’t the translation, but changed English vocabulary.

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46 posts were split to a new topic: The Bible, Abuse in Church and Sports, and SSM

“Any insights from anthropology from this time period?”

The Jews living in Israel in the period between the Old and New Testaments followed the rabbinic teachings that sought to establish a national identity. The Jerusalem elite were powerful religious leaders who insisted that their teachings (oral Torah) were of equal, if not greater, authority to written Torah. Many Jews living outside of Israel rejected this claim. These Karaite Jews insisted that only written Torah held authority. Not surprisingly, the Karaites appear to have been more receptive to the Messianic Faith as it developed around the person of Jesus than the Jews of Israel who interpreted Scripture in such a way as to focus the Divine Sonship on the nation of Israel.This is the beginning of political Zionism and what Shlomo Sand calls “the invention of the Jewish people.” I recommend his book by that title. (Verso, 2009)

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@Patrick,

There isn’t universal agreement because of Sola Scriptura, which no one had heard of until the reformation. Up until then, there were really three major divisions in over 1000 yrs of church history: The Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, and the Catholics. Today, most Orthodox scholars agree that the differences between the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox were semantic and not theological, so that would make 2 major divisisions, and the Pope the first Protestant. :wink:

I realize I have made gross overgeneralizations but I believe the basic thrust of what I just said. I’ve kept quiet about Christian divisions so far on this forum, but I thought now would be a good time to chip in. @Djordje can hopefully back me up on this? :wink:

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