Really, the Bible has been used to justify slavery, no inter-racial marriages, racial discrimination, authority of monarchy, murder in the form of burning at the stake for blasphemy, crusades and a lot of horrendous things. Even today the Bible is used to discriminate against LBGTQ people, woman, and consensual adult sexual activities.
Since KJV we have much better manuscripts. That is one reason there are changes too.
@patrick science has been used to justify all these things too.
cough Justify cough
Oooh, this is a good one. Did you know that United Church of Canada and possibly United Church of Christ fought for LGBT equality even before psychology came to see that it wasn’t mental disorder?
Sure, around here there are Christian Church flying the rainbow flag. My point is, if the Bible is such a great book of how to live a moral life in 2018, why is there such disagreement on what the Bible says?
okay, so SSM is okay?
In this country Same Sex marriage is the law of the land. You’re okay with that? You don’t think that having a same sex couple living next to you, or working with you or teaching your children in school is violating your religious beliefs?
Oh, same-sex marriage? It’s not only OK, it’s desirable (can’t wait for 2020, we might legalize it too). As for them teaching my kids, living next door, it would be great. That way, they won’t have to live the first 14 years of their life in deep rooted homophobia like I did.
Yes - I don’t disagree. Just that the improvements make no great change to the message.
In this country the only groups protesting against SSM were Christian groups. Now Christian adoption service groups don’t want to place children to SSM couples.
Keep in mind there remains disagreement about this in the church, which is @patrick’s point.
In our political context it is important to remember the Bible is not a political document. It does not give policy prescriptions.
I realize that, and when it comes to that I’m firmly on Matthew Vines’ side of things, I just answered what my opinion is, not of every Christian person or denomination.
But let’s stop with this before it gets passionate.
Thank you for the discussion. It is not getting heated in any way. I merely wanted to point out that there is absolutely no unanimity of what the Bible says nor teaches. We can agree that it is an ancient book written by the people of that time where human morals, ethics and values were different than today.
Agreed, and let’s not forget different understanding of certain things, including the topic above.
That is not true. There are place of high importance to us where their is disagreement. There are also places of high importance to us where their is agreement.
Notice that Patrick has just changed the subject. Is that what they mean by “gish gallop”?
Patrick. I love you like a brother and you are my favorite person on this board. I’ve told many people that in the past. You took me in, challenged me when I needed it, supported me when I needed that instead. With all that said, I hope that you read what I’m saying here and allow it to soak in. No reasonable person denies that the Bible has been misused in the past to justify inhumane and even non-Biblical practices. This is wrong.
That said, I hope that you will come to know the church by the people who make it up… us. We do not have control of the aberrant few troublemakers, it is the nature of the beast. That said, your criticism can be applied to other situations where it is easier to see if similar criticism holds up. US Gymnastics, for instance. They are under fire for the terrible abuse that occurred. It never should have happened, but it did. We don’t punish “gymnastics” or “gymnasts” for this. We fix the problem and move on. Penn State suffered terribly from the Sandusky event. A hallowed organization with 100,000 plus students was smeared because of the senseless and egregious acts of a few. Again, fix the problem and move on.
Christians and Christianity are known for their charity, their love and their willingness to give sacrificially, even to the point of death, to others. This is the norm. Are we perfect? No. Will we ever be? No. But we should be able to see that the terrible acts of a few can be separated from the acts, attitudes and behaviors of the rest? Yes.
The Bible makes a position that is pretty clearly against marriage being intended for other than a man and a woman . I cannot change what the text says. That said, you may (or may not) be interested in my own personal opinion on the subject. As a Christian, I love the homosexual. I want every one of them to be in heaven with me and I’d love to help to lead them there. I am not trying to fix them nor am I looking at them as sinners. We are all sinners. I am sickened by any attitude within the church that would cause any homosexual to turn away from the church, and not be drawn to the love of Jesus Christ. That’s of ultimate importance.
Regarding SSM, my personal opinion is that I’ve always been “against” it… not for biblical reasons, but rather because I’m vehemently against any movement to change the definition of a word. If our words become a moving target, we’re all in trouble. A Brave New World is just around the corner. So, I’ve always been in favor of SSU (same sex unions) wherein the union is legal, binding, and has all of the benefits of marriage, but is not called “marriage” because marriage is literally the union of a man and a woman.