Where did God come from?


(The Honest Skeptic) #61

Some find faith in God a challenge to believe. If you, or anyone else, wishes to believe that universes poop themselves into being automatically, every trillion, trillion years, I have a teapot to sell you.

(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #62

Silver teapot, I hope. And it would have to be from silver made in the collaspe of two neutron stars. :sunglasses:

(The Honest Skeptic) #63

Someone call Dawkins, his teapot has been sold to Patrick.

(John Dalton) #64

Not necessarily. Certainly we could literally envision it ourselves now. Leaving that aside, it might be the result of some creative process outside our understanding. It seems likely to be, really. Who knows if what we think of as “intelligence” is even applicable? To think we somehow have our finger on the pulse of it seems… hubristic? Searching for the right word here.

(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #65

a new production:

(The Honest Skeptic) #66

Obviously this is a matter of opinion and conjecture. Apart from knowledge of the universe, do you see yourself as having the ability to envision a universe? One of the scale, scope, intricacy from the smallest-small to the largest-large, beauty, wonder, mystery, the invisible forces, functions and features? Maybe you can. I cannot.

(The Honest Skeptic) #67

Hitchens completely misses the point about a “just God” and Jefferson’s concerns. His understanding that a just God existed in no way alleviated the American citizens of culpability over slavery, rather it was the opposite. That man is created in the image of God, with the understanding of right vs. wrong, but possessing free will, meant that man was and is capable of terrible atrocities. So, the existence of a just God did not suggest to Jefferson that God was going to fix the situation, but that man would be judged for not fixing the situation, when it was so clearly wrong. It was always man’s situation to fix.

(John Dalton) #68

Ok, maybe it would just be a cheap knock-off, true.

(The Honest Skeptic) #69

Hahaha… I’m sure it would be very nice:slight_smile:

(John Harshman) #70

You didn’t answer my question either, though it wasn’t in the form of a question. Why not?

But to answer yours: “He exists” requires a multiplication of entities (well, one highly complicated entity) while “he was made up” does not, since we know that people do exist and do make things up. In fact, I would suspect that you think Zeus and Marduk were made up. Is that correct? Hypotheses that require extra entities are more complex than hypotheses that don’t.

(John Dalton) #71

I guess it would do for us. It might be a bit rough around the edges.

(The Honest Skeptic) #72

I disagree with you. A made up god, by very nature, requires a degree of complexity beyond one that exists, because creative effort is required to manufacture this god. I would agree that a real god, one who was responsible for the creation of the universe, would be more complex than a manufactured god. But that was not the issue being discussed. It was in choosing between god existing vs. god having been made up, which one is more complex.

Your question, is quoted above. As was noted earlier in the thread, I was merely asking why A was more complex than B. I was not envisioning one god vs. another.

That said… why is “Zeus or Marduk exists” more complicated than “Zeus or Marduk was made up?”

A: Zeus is, vs. Zeus is a human concept put forth as an explanation for mysterious physical forces of unknown origin, such as lightning. Zeus (or Marduk) is is less complicated, in my opinion.

(The Honest Skeptic) #73

Don’t take this the wrong way, but I don’t want to live there! :slight_smile:

(John Dalton) #74

The pink oceans probably were a tad much.

(Guy Coe) #75

Let’s also add, that the God revealed in the Bible, is one that is incapable of being humanly “made up.” You don’t “make up” a single supreme transcendent God to Whom you are minutely accountable.
You can, however, make up inferior versions of such, then reject them with a laugh, of course.
Wouldn’t pink oceans result from too much salinity planet-wide to sustain life? : )

(The Honest Skeptic) #76

Let’s not knock them until we try them! @John_Dalton :slight_smile:

(Guy Coe) #77

Meet you at Yellowstone, and watch you take a dip in all those wildly colored pools. Just don’t bother to book a return flight! : )
(Sorry for an acidic sense of humor!)…

(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #78

God of the Bible was the first single supreme transcendent God. I thought Hinduism has many a thousand years prior and so did Egypt and Assyria. Supreme transcendent Gods are part of most ancient cultures.

(Guy Coe) #79

“Transcedent” means from beyond and outside of space and time. All the other ones from ancient cultures are “emanations” from within nature.
I’d be happy to be informed of any exceptions to this “rule.” The ancient Chinese conception of the Almighty may be one.

(John Harshman) #80

Of course, he said, just dripping with irony.