Where did God come from?

[Patrick]

@dga471

I don’t think this line of argumentation makes sense. To make an analogy, there’s a fundamental difference between people disagreeing on which system of government makes the most sense, versus people who believe that all forms of government are illegitimate.

Ok, tell me about your beliefs in Allah?

[AllenWitmerMiller (Retired Professor & Minister.)]

@Michael_Callen

Why is “he exists” more complicated than “he was made up”?

@John_Harshman

Try substituting Zeus or Marduk in that question and see what you think.

The substitution makes no difference. @Michael_Callen’s question was about complexity, not about validity or truth.

[John_Harshman]

@AllenWitmerMiller

The substitution makes no difference. @Michael_Callen’s question was about complexity , not about validity or truth .

Is it more complex to say that Zeus exists than to say that Zeus was made up?

[dga471 (Daniel)]

Might be interesting for you to know that in my mother tongue, Indonesian, “Allah” is a general terms for God - our Bibles use the word to refer to the God of the OT.

Christians and Muslim agree that God created the universe. Which is why WLC defends the Kalam Cosmological Argument which was first put forth by medieval Islamic philosophers. However we disagree on the nature and attributes of God, such as the Trinity, as well as which ones are God’s prophets.

[Patrick]

@dga471

Christians and Muslim agree that God created the universe. Which is why WLC defends the Kalam Cosmological Argument which was first put forth by medieval Islamic philosophers. However we disagree on the nature and attributes of God, such as the Trinity, as well as which ones are God’s prophets.

Sure God/Allah/YHWH created the universe, the earth and people beginning with Adam. But the problem comes in with this fellow who preforms miracles 2000 years ago.

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

Jesus does turn everything upside down. He is the one me to watch closely.

[Ashwin_s]

@Patrick

But it seems like every person professes faith “in the one true God” By saying this they are making the pronouncement that all the other Gods are false Gods. So isn’t everyone atheistic to everyone else’s God but their own? Atheist just don’t believe in one more God than you do -your’s.

Think of it this way… suppose you exist as a person (shouldn’t be difficult to do)… And someone who doesn’t know you goes around asking people do you know Patrick… most will say no… some will say yes.
Follow the question with what’s he like?
Every person will give answers that’s different to varying degrees. Does this lead to the logical conclusion that @Patrick doesn’t exist?

It’s similar with God. Only he is far more famous through creation while being far more mysterious in his nature(from the human perspective).
Our descriptions of God does not change the reality. It’s his revelation of himself that tells us the truth.

So the question is how has God revealed himself and to whom.
I and most people here believe Jesus is the perfect revelation of God. And this is the result of an encounter with Jesus more often than a result of pure logic.
However the existence of God can be deduced from his creation.

[Patrick]

@Ashwin_s

Think of it this way… suppose you exist as a person (shouldn’t be difficult to do)… And someone who doesn’t know you goes around asking people do you know Patrick… most will say no… some will say yes.
Follow the question with what’s he like?
Every person will give answers that’s different to varying degrees. Does this lead to the logical conclusion that @Patrick doesn’t exist?

Of course I exist today. Even though you can’t actually see me typing you are very sure that I exist. I also believe that I exist and I am not in some kind of computer program designed by intelligent software designers.
But based on 54 years of investigation starting when I was 6, I have not ever come close to believing in any God, spirit, or ghost. I certainly can imagine things and I certainly can hear myself thinking and going round in circles with various thought patterns. But I have no basis that it is some God trying to communicate with me. I find it easier to live without any supernatural beliefs.

[Ashwin_s]

@Patrick

But based on 54 years of investigation starting when I was 6, I have not ever come close to believing in any God, spirit, or ghost. I certainly can imagine things and I certainly can hear myself thinking and going round in circles with various thought patterns. But I have no basis that it is some God trying to communicate with me. I find it easier to live without any supernatural beliefs.

Actually it’s doesn’t matter what you find to be easier. It was a tough choice for me to become a Christian. It would have been easier to stay as a non-religious person.
What matters is the truth. For example, with respect to spirits… the question to ask is whether you have a spirit… i.e whether it’s only your body and it’s molecules or whether there is more to you.

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

@Patrick

Of course I exist today. Even though you can’t actually see me typing you are very sure that I exist.

I"m still entertaining the theory that some of you are chatbots created by my graduate students to mess with me. This is why I hope you can all meet me in person. This is how I might know you are real…unless this too is part of the ruse…

[PdotdQ]

@swamidass

This is why I hope you can all meet me in person. This is how I might now you are real…unless this too is part of the ruse…

Does transitive, second hand meeting counts ? You’ve met @dga471 and he can confirm that I am a real person! (Unless I am @dga471 in disguise)

[John_Dalton]

@Ashwin_s

How does whether any religion know who God is have anything to do with whether he exists or not?

It doesn’t, but it does have to do with whether a “God” we know anything at all about exists or not. Such an entity might have nothing to do with any human idea about God, be totally unimaginable, etc. etc.

[Ashwin_s]

@John_Dalton

It doesn’t, but it does have to do with whether a “God” we know anything at all about exists or not.

Not really. If God exists and he is the cause/creator of all things. We can know that he is extremely powerful and knowledgeable. Perhaps beyond our imagination.
This will give an imperative to search for God. Like you said, all religions might be wrong. But the personal Imperative to seek God and find out about him remains.

Sitting back based on (unprovable) speculations about God being essentially unknowable is definitely an option. But it would an illogical and defeatist attitude IMO.
Besides I know from experience that God does reveal himself to those who seek him. So it would be dishonest on my part to deny it.

[Patrick]

@Ashwin_s

Actually it’s doesn’t matter what you find to be easier. It was a tough choice for me to become a Christian. It would have been easier to stay as a non-religious person.
What matters is the truth. For example, with respect to spirits… the question to ask is whether you have a spirit… i.e whether it’s only your body and it’s molecules or whether there is more to you .

Did becoming a Christian improve your life? Is life more meaningful now? How has your morals, values and ethics changed since becoming a Christian? Are you happier?

[John_Dalton]

@Ashwin_s

Not really. If God exists and he is the cause/creator of all things.

True, “nothing at all” is too strong a term. But such knowledge would be limited to very general parameters we derive by conjecture.

We can know that he is extremely powerful and knowledgeable. Perhaps beyond our imagination.

Maybe. Then again, maybe he has no power except that of universe creating. He might not need to know anything to do it. Or anything else really. All of it could be beyond our imagination, totally. It indeed seems to be in my view.

@Ashwin_s

This will give an imperative to search for God. Like you said, all religions might be wrong. But the personal Imperative to seek God and find out about him remains.

I’m not seeing the imperative (though it’s certainly an option for those who are interested.) Looking at the results people have achieved so far, and the other information about reality that’s available to us, it seems to me like searching for gold nuggets in a street puddle. I would feel justified in taking a pass on that activity–though I do give it all more thought than most, I think.

@Ashwin_s

Sitting back based on (unprovable) speculations about God being essentially unknowable is definitely an option. But it would an illogical and defeatist attitude IMO.

Ha, we are diametrically opposed–in one sense. On the other hand, as I’ve said, I’m all for knowing as much about it as possible. I think about it a lot and I would love nothing better than to understand it to the core. Reality has a way of smacking your hopes and dreams in the face though, and here the reality looks like that that information isn’t readily available to us. I’m not going to cry in my beer about that. I don’t think that attitude is defeatist. I think it’s realistic. And I’m all for anybody thinking about as much as they like. I’m even usually willing to listen.

@Ashwin_s

Besides I know from experience that God does reveal himself to those who seek him. So it would be dishonest on my part to deny it.

I guess a convincing demonstration of that isn’t possible, so it doesn’t do me any good. I’m not going to deny anyone’s personal revelations. But I hope they will equally recognize that they’re revelations to them and not to me.

[Michael_Callen (Herculean Skeptic)]

@Patrick

Did becoming a Christian improve your life? Is life more meaningful now? How has your morals, values and ethics changed since becoming a Christian? Are you happier?

Absolutely did for me. I would say that this is a mostly-universal affirmative. Not that bad things don’t happen, but that we can find joy in all (most) situations.

[Michael_Callen (Herculean Skeptic)]

@John_Harshman

Try substituting Zeus or Marduk in that question and see what you think.

You did not answer, except to ask a question. Why is “he exists” more complicated (okay, complex) than “he was made up?” Please do not reply with a question.

[Michael_Callen (Herculean Skeptic)]

@John_Dalton

Maybe. Then again, maybe he has no power except that of universe creating. He might not need to know anything to do it. Or anything else really. All of it could be beyond our imagination, totally. It indeed seems to be in my view.

No power except that of “universe creating?” Don’t you think that universe envisioning alone would require more intelligence than what humans possess on a grand scale?

[AllenWitmerMiller (Retired Professor & Minister.)]

@swamidass

I"m still entertaining the theory that some of you are chatbots created by my graduate students to mess with me.

In my case, I sometimes wonder if I am merely a figment of my own imagination.

[Patrick]

@Michael_Callen

No power except that of “universe creating?” Don’t you think that universe envisioning alone would require more intelligence than what humans possess on a grand scale?

What if the properties of empty space are such that universes just pop into existence every trillion trillion years?