Why are We Disagreeing with ID?

Time to recycle this once more:

In Icons of Evolution, Jonathan Wells poses 10 questions for students to ask their teachers. Here’s one of them, and my response.

Question 3: Homology.

“Why do textbooks define homology as similarity due
to common ancestry, then claim that it is evidence for common
ancestry – a circular argument masquerading as scientific
evidence?”

Answer:

This question stems from confusion on Wells’ part between how something is defined and how it is recognized, which are two quite different things. Homology is indeed defined as similarity due to common ancestry. But we don’t just label any similarity a homology and call it evidence for common ancestry. That would indeed be circular. What we really do is quite different. Similarity between the characteristics of two organisms is an observation. If the similarity is sufficiently detailed (“both are big” or “both are green” won’t do) we consider it a candidate for homology.

Homologies can be tested to some degree by predicting that the characters will be similar in ways we haven’t yet checked. For example, if we propose that similar-looking bones in two animals are homologous, we might predict that they would arise from similar precursors in the embryo, have similar spatial relationships to other bones in the organism, and have their development influenced by similar genes. And this is commonly the case.

But the main way of testing candidate homologies is by congruence with other proposed homologies. By congruence we mean that the two characters can plausibly belong to the same history. If the history of life looks like a tree, with species related by branching from common ancestors, then all true homologies should fit that tree; that is, each homology should arise once and only once on the tree. If a large number of functionally and genetically independent candidate homologies fit the same evolutionary tree, we can infer both that the candidates really are homologies and that the tree reflects a real evolutionary history.

And in fact that’s what we commonly find. Mammals, for example, are inferred to descend from a common ancestor because they all have hair, mammary glands, and other more obscure characteristics like seven neckbones and three earbones. All these characteristics go together: mammals have all of them and no other animals have any of them. Further, other characters support consistent groupings within mammals, and groupings within those groupings. Within most of life, groups are organized in a very special way called a hierarchy. In a hierarchy, every group is related to every other group in one of two ways: either one group entirely contained within the other (as in a below), or they share no members at all (as in b below). No two groups can partially overlap (as in c below).

[That’s the top part of the PDF below]

What we see if we try to organize species using candidate homologies is that groups organized according to different characters fit together like a and b, but not c, so we get a pattern like this:

[That’s the midle part of the PDF below.]

Why should these and many other characters all go together in this consistent way? Evolutionary biology explains these characters as homologies, all evolved on a single tree of descent, like this:

[That’s the bottom part of the PDF below.]

Wells gives no alternative explanation for such patterns, and indeed they are hard to explain in any other way than as reflections of an evolutionary history. Wells has it all wrong. Homology isn’t a circular argument, it’s a branching tree of evidence.
Homology Figures.pdf (31.3 KB)

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New binding occurs all the time. You’re just rejecting basic biochemistry.

This implies that there should be more than are found, which is another unsupported claim.

Actually, two:

  1. That there should be a certain amount of a thing, and
  2. That said thing isn’t found

You are evidently under the misapprehension that you can support a claim either with repetition or the addition of more unsupported claims. This is not the case.

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The conclusion is stated in the definition. This is the same for convergent evolution. It looks to the outside world as an attempt to indoctrinate. I would take Wells objection to heart despite your thoughts that you can make this ok with a rhetorical argument that is not surfacing the. molecular challenges. Science is by definition tentative. A conclusion as part of a definition does not fit with the general spirit of science.

What is gained by stating the conclusion as part of the definition?

They have. With almost every paper on evolutionary biology that is published. They just don’t have any need to come out and say “And so Michael Behe and ID are proven wrong yet again” with every paper.

I’m quite certain you have no idea what it means for an allele or set of alleles to be “fixed.”

In any event, I’m not even sure why you are talking about this.

Behe’s story is based on the difficulty in obtaining the two necessary mutations. What does it have to do with his story if the two mutations together are subject to negative selection when CQ is no longer in the parasites’ environment?

Also, Behe’s story is that individual steps in the evolution of the trait are so deleterious that multiple steps have to occur simultaneously. If you are correct that CR is subject to such negative selection, yet it persists in the population for over eight years, that would refute Behe’s point. Unless his definition of “simultaneous” is so broad that it includes mutations occurring 8 years apart… Maybe, if you want, you can work out how many generations of P. falciparum that would be.

“These go to 11” needs no refutation. It’s the punchline. You don’t say anything after the punchline.

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I would regard selection as a continuous feedback on existing variation and novel mutation.

From where the fossil record begins, I see nothing that is not explicable in general terms of evolutionary principles.

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No it isn’t. Did you read any of that? The conclusion would be that a given feature did or did not fit the definition, i.e. that it was or was not homologous. And that conclusion depends on the data, not on just assuming the definition.

Convergent evolution is not sentient and doesn’t look to anything. Try rewriting to say what you actually mean, if you do mean something.

What is gained by your indefatigable confusion and refusal to read?

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Yes. There’s no reason to think that just because a new protein-protein binding sight can easily evolve, that they should evolve anywhere and everywhere as if they’re by definition beneficial solutions to whatever problem an organism faces.

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If the sequence was not homologous what are the alternative explanations for the sequence similarity.

  1. homoplasy
  2. ?

If what sequence was not homologous? What are you trying to say?

You’re free to come up with testable alternatives deriving from observed and understood mechanisms that explain all the same data equally well or better with equal or fewer parameters.

How do you independently test for either homoplasy or common descent independent of a tree pattern? What is the chance of highly similar (95% or greater) sequences evolving independently?

Would it not generate more credibility to simply claim similarity then to try to force fit either of these alternatives as the defined cause?

“Force fit.” Good lord.

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So you have no testable alternative.

Okay.

No one here thinks that has ever happened.

Jesus Christ. Nobody claims similarity. It is observed.

What is offered is a testable explanation for it.

This also never happens. Common descent is not defined to be the cause of similarity, it is inferred to be the cause of similarity, and when and if similarities inferred to have been caused by common descent are found they’re called homologous because they meet the definition of the word.

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There is nothing to test against from the evolutionary side except for a pattern where the cause is asserted.

What is homoplasy then?

A claim supported by the observation.

What is the inference if the similarities are not due to common descent. How do you test for this inference?

But “selectable” means natural selection favors a mutation, it means fitness improves.

And…?

Correct. There is no alternative to evolution to test against, and the proposed alternative cause is just brainlessly asserted. “Mind did it”. Or even worse, “God did it”. Or “it was designed”. It’s all just ad-hoc rationalizations.

How is that question a meaningful response to what I said?

Then we wouldn’t expect there to be a nested hierarchy. So we test for that by seeing how well the data conforms to a nested hierarchy.

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???

Did you read my post? You’re asking for an explanation of homoplasy. Homoplasy is just similarity that isn’t due to common descent. That could have any explanation other than common descent, but whatever the explanation, it’s homoplasy. Now we can investigate the reasons for homoplasy, which can often be explained by adaptive convergence. But that’s after we’ve determined that the pattern is due to homoplasy, not prior or simultaneous as you seem to think.

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Others have already explained how hypotheses are tested.
More importantly, that “No U” doesn’t answer his question.

I think you are equivocating “selectable” (could be favored) with “selected” (is favored).