Why are We Disagreeing with ID?

colewd

This is not what I said. Evolution is not an alternative explanation for life’s diversity because you cannot directly test the claims. Matter itself is not an adequate causal mechanism. A mind on the other hand could explain what we are observing in biology.

No one thinks that every happened yet there is an explanation for what no one thinks ever happened. My whole point is that this theory that is being taught is essentially indoctrination as the claims are way ahead of the evidence and in some cases are making essentially false claims.

The existence of homoplasy is essentially a falsification of common descent where it is observed.

This is another false assertion as Winston showed. Design generates a nested hierarchy. The nested hierarchy is not a test that isolates common descent.

It’s manifestly false that explanations from evolution are not tested. There is a bulk of literature out there where hypotheses are being put to the test. But then again, stop with the Tu Quoque, and address @Rumraket original point:

So far, Intelligent Design hasn’t come up with explanations, only ad-hoc assertions (Goddidit). Predicting you will come-back with another Tu Quoque by claiming that evolution too is ad-hoc/ it isn’t. See last paragraph.

:rofl:

You’re missing a vital detail. Due to the constraints involved in the processes, evolution generates natural nested hierarchies. On the other hand, since it lacks the constraints, design may or may not generate nested hierarchies and it very often doesn’t. Thus, evolution predicts nested hierarchy, and the process explains how they are generated. Whereas, design doesn’t predict this. One would assert that a designer produced the nested hierarchy only after the fact (i.e. it’s ad hoc).

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“Mind” does not explain much at all, unless you have a very clear definition of “mind”.

I can’t. I just can’t.

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colewd

Evolution is a claim of transitions if being proposed as a complete explanation for the diversity of life… These transitions are not directly tested. The nested hierarchy does not eliminate design as a cause as @Winston_Ewert showed. What common descent does not predict is homoplasy. Design is a viable explanation for this observation.

It’s easy to misrepresent the alternative theory.

Behe has come up with an objective method of detecting design and @Winston_Ewert dependency graph can be analyzed using Behe’s method.

Evolution is a good theory but only a partial explanation for life’s diversity. The observation of similar sequences that don’t share ancestry is clear evidence of the theories limitations.

You should review @Winston_Ewert work.

Ewert

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Missing some dependencies here.

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You have changed what you said. Your previous claim is that evolution is not an explanation for life’s diversity as it’s claims cannot be directly tested. Now you say that the claim of evolutionary transitions as a complete explanation of the diversity of life. Linguistically, it is subtle, but it makes all the difference. I don’t think evolutionary theory, nor any other theory for that matter, is a ‘complete’ explanation of anything. Nevertheless, I do think that the theory proposes hypothesis that are testable and the are indeed tested (which was my previous objection).

I never said it did.

Indeed, that’s convergent evolution. Or are you going to complain that no theory should allow of auxiliary hypotheses to explain exceptions that were not predicted by the primary hypothesis?

You have to careful with this. To name one example, sequences that experience more mutations than others, it is statistically likely that they become convergent more similar than other sequences each are otherwise more closely related to. This effect is known as ‘long branch attraction’ and it is well-known.

I have read about this. I am happy that ID-proponents are finally attempting to give a mechanism of design, rather proposing for some vague concept with no principles. While I don’t have the time to go over the full paper in dept, I will point out one major issue that sticks out to me. Here they propose that the designer are compelled by design constraint to reuse parts or modules, in order to solve similar functional problems, in such a manner that would produce a pattern, not just akin to a nested hierarchy, but actually produce pattern that fits much better as it also explains things that would otherwise be considered as homoplasy. Firstly, this appears to exclude an omnipotent designer, as this principle implies the designer is subject to constraints. Although that is just a side note. My main problem is that organisms don’t seem to reuse parts in the manner that is proposed. Not even regarding “instances of module reuse across taxonomic boundaries”, which they think is especially better explained by their design principle rather than common descent. Let’s look at one example they use in the paper, marine mammals. They all have fins that functions for swimming in water just like other aquatic vertebrates. The similarity in shape of all fins are clearly constrained by having to function as a hydrodynamic foil in water. However, they don’t appear to be “reused modules”, at least not in the sense that they propose. Instead, marine mammals have the same underlying bone structure as you and me; humerus, ulna, radius, (meta)carples, and digits. In some cases, such as manatees, they also have fingernails. They clearly appear to be “reused” or (more appropriately) modified from the limbs of terrestrial tetrapods, rather than from something that already served the same function. This is even more striking in the case of penguins (not mammals, but still). The underlying structure of their fins suggest a modification not just from tetrapod limbs but from bird wings specifically. Another thing to note are the absence of ‘reuse’ that one could expect otherwise. For example, why do none of the marine tetrapods have gills ‘reused’ from fish or from anything else that breathe oxygen from water in addition to breathing oxygen from air with lungs? Note, I did not say ‘why not gills instead of lungs’. I understand that lungs may have some benefits over gills, but they are not mutually exclusive. So, even such cases of homoplasy, they are still very consistent with the nested pattern of common descent, and not with the design principle to reuse modules that already fulfilled the same functions.

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colewd

Hi Ness
I think we have some common ground here. Evolutionary theory is very valuable but more limited then advertised. I do not agree there is a solid test for common descent as being able to organize the data in a tree alone is not very informative when compared to design as an alternative explanation.

Thanks for pointing this out.
This is an interesting argument but does not appear mathematically viable. Has anyone developed a model of how this might work? The size of gene sequence space would appear to be an impediment to this working.

Bill does seem to have that effect. He’s like Sisyphus’s rock, except that the rock manages to get most of the way up the hill.

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It depends. If you hear someone “evolutionary theory is complete, everything it says is absolutely true and nothing about it will be updated in the future”…then yes, that is false advertisement. In my opinion, evolutionary theory is better supported than the theory of gravity (especially Newtonian)

Long branch attraction (also short branch attraction) is a statistical bias that has been known about for a long time. In long branches, homoplasy becomes more likely. If you want to know more about the mathematics, you can search ‘long branch attraction’ in google scholar.

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Interesting indeed!

Just as you need to establish “purpose” before the claim is reasonable.

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If you limit it to changes in existing population and some limited speciation I would agree with you. Beyond that evolutionary theory lacks an explanatory mechanism that we can attribute to matter alone. While Newton’s model lacks accuracy for planetary motion it does very well predicting local effects.

I have taken a brief look at this and appreciate you surfacing this idea. Like many theoretical ideas it lacks a mechanistic explanation that can be attributed to matter.

If more then matter is required this is where ID theory starts.

If we have two protein sequences neutrally gaining substitutions I would expect the similarity to reach an equilibrium distribution around a mean of about 5% similarity based on 20 substitutable amino acids. A convergence greater than this would not be expected based on neutral mutations.

It has been established by identifying a function that has a purpose or reason for that function.

Bill defines purpose as function but treats it thereafter as necessarily purposeful. Thus he smuggles in agency by the back door.

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This is not about agency its about a reason for the function. Why does the word purpose give you so much heartburn?

Why do we need to attribute it to matter alone?

From my way of looking at it, evolution is a theory of behavior (of organisms). That the organisms are made of matter is a mere implementation detail. It’s the behavior that is important.

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This isn’t theoretical, the effect is observed and the effect is predicted by statistics.

Long branch attraction isn’t only the result of neutral evolution. Also, proteins don’t have to become highly similar in an absolute degree in order for long branch attraction to take effect. You don’t understand the subject.

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Bill has also made is clear (somewhere above) that he take ALL arrangements of matter to be an indication of Design. Even the evidence he claims would disprove Design is proof of Design.

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What you are observing is simply similar sequences. The cause is a different issue.

I showed you the statistics based on neutral evolution. What is the statistical argument that allows greater then 5% similarity over time? There could be some mutational bias but what is the bias and what similarity do you predict based on these statistics?