YEC Worldview on Current Science News

I haven’t read a lot of Wise or Ross, so I don’t have particularly strong opinions about what’s going on there, and Wise in particular is a bit of an outlier. It’s certainly true that it’s easy for people who merely dip a toe into science here and there, selectively reading a paper on human evolution and drawing hilariously bad conclusions from it, may be on a journey of self-deception. But once they get a bit of depth it generally seems to me that something else is going on – they’ve got to know that they’re falsely representing science, and I tend to suspect that it’s either a sort of ends-justifying-means rationale or some sort of unjustified confidence that one of these days the evidence is sure to take a turn in their favor.

If a person is dead set – and some of them are, of course – on the conclusion of creationism being true, then he may well figure that lying about the evidence is a good way to help keep people from reaching other conclusions, and that this is all to the good. What are fibs, when souls are being saved? A person who does that may indeed be engaged in self-deception, but he’s also involved in a deliberate campaign of deception himself, and he knows it.

Trying to work out these people’s motives is definitely a bit of a stare into the abyss. It produces a combination of loathing and despair that’s hard to get at the corner drugstore. Is self-deception an ingredient here? Sure. I can’t imagine that it’s not. But in the case of people who are reasonably literate I find it hard to fully accept.

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I am glad to hear you say that. Coming out of a YEC background I think I understand where you are coming from. I know all too well the challenges that modern cosmology and other disciplines bring to the table.

If I were to use a mathematical analogy, consider that the theories we have (Evolution, etc.) are a set of polynomial equations (across disciplines) that fit (most of) the data points we have. To overturn (rewrite) these equations would require a massive data set, one that we are unlikely to ever find. The polynomial may be lengthened and improved, but I do not expect a massive re-write. Is it impossible? No, not in the strict sense of that term. It is extremely unlikely however.

Please understand that the men here who represent these theories are very serious about honest inquiries. If the data really pointed to a single pair of individuals originating from some area in Iraq or Iran, then they would be honest about it. They really do want to follow the evidence. The fact that the evidence points in a very different direction is hard to explain from a YEC perspective.

If nothing else please understand that all the folks here are (I believe) acting in good faith and while I admire your desire to remain true to a particular reading of the Bible, you are facing a herculean task of overcoming the obstacles it presents.

I’m sure that I’m not writing anything you don’t already know. I mean this kindly and as I said, I’m all too familiar with the struggle.

Sincerely,

CL

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Yes, I understand the distance to the Andromeda Galaxy will not change. I’ve got that part :wink:

Huh. Yep, I filter out what I think lends a little more support for my beliefs and then I post it to let you shred those ideas to pieces - or at least to see if you do. :slightly_smiling_face: Sort of… :laughing:

Here’s a couple interesting ones I came across recently. Wasn’t going to post, bu what the heck -why not? :laughing:Young Faint Sun Paradox—A New Solution | Answers in Genesis

Not necessarily. It could just take one piece of evidence in each discipline, although that idea doesn’t work well in your analogy.

Agreed. What is all-but-palpable is that for IDcreationists, the evidence itself represents the abyss that must be avoided, while at the same time acknowledging its importance.

That’s why we get @Eddie trying to tell us that Denton’s books are sooooo convincing (and that he cites lots of evidence) while simultaneously being unable/unwilling to identify a single piece of evidence that he himself finds convincing.

It’s why @thoughtful starts, as she did in this thread, by linking to the popular press, but when she links to an actual paper (which I must admit is much further than almost anyone in her tribe will go), only does textual analysis.

I’m certain that if we were all sitting around in a non-politically charged atmosphere watching a courtroom drama on TV, they would both be very clear on the nature of evidence, why evidence is more informative than hearsay, and why most hearsay isn’t even allowed to be presented in court.

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What is it in the article that you think supports creationism?

This is what I got from the article. Salamanders have much larger genomes than other vertebrates, mostly due to a burst of transposon activity that greatly increased the size of their genomes. One of the results of this burst in transposon activity was a lot of insertions in introns. This results in poorer gene expression for genes that have much larger introns which has impacts on development.

Is there something in the article that you think supports creationism?

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Ohh…a back-handed compliment, I’m getting somewhere. :sweat_smile:

The mystery of why that explosion happened has intrigued Mueller ever since. “It wasn’t like one [transposon] went bananas,” she says. “It was a global change in how those [transposon] sequences were permitted to inhabit the genome,” allowing dozens of them to multiply simultaneously.

Perhaps certain baramins are designed to allow certain types of sequences (transposons, repetitive sequences, ?) to proliferate, which creates a unique environment for specific types of evolution and unique adaptation. In this case, slow development. That would be a creationist hypothesis though; it’s not really support for creationism (yet). Not sure how you’d show in a lab that those ongoing edits are unique to specific baramins and can’t be replicated in others. I’m “thinking” out loud as I type. Perhaps my thoughts don’t make sense. I have to think more on it. :laughing:

There are patterns to that size, Gregory says. The DNA load that a species can tolerate depends on its speed of development, its metabolic rate and the way it lives.

That’s the first time I’ve ever read a suggestion that genome size or ability to accommodate a size change might have a specific purpose/design. The examples given after that quote were very interesting. It makes me think about the genome in a different way. Does the onion test (if understand correctly what it is) fail to consider the whole picture?

Hi thoughtful. Let me rephrase what you said using my (imperfect) analogy in the way it would have to be stated to actually change our understanding:

It would take one piece of evidence (in each discipline) whose weight would be of (forgive the pun) Biblical proportions.

What I was trying to illustrate is that it isn’t a matter of finding data that seems to conflict (AIG does this all the time). Even if it is a legitimate discovery and represents something to be figured out, it doesn’t automatically cancel out everything else we know.

Imagine a teeter-toter with several thousand pounds on one end (Evolution) and very little on the other (competing theories). Unless the new evidence is of an unprecedented and overwhelming weight, it isn’t going to overcome all that existing data and tilt the other direction.

Groups like AIG try to find apparent discrepancies and think that those things by themselves can cause us to (going back to the analogy) re-write the polynomial. At most the polynomial will require small adjustment (maybe a new term is added or an existing scalar value is changed).

I’m really a layman on these matters, but I think that the other folks here will agree with the gist of what I’m saying.

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Well, you’re not going to overcome data, just the interpretation of it. But I think evidence of unprecedented and overwhelming weight can still be found.

I would also encourage more thought. I think we are both sensing that you are projecting baramins onto the data instead of having baramins emerge from the data. You might ask yourself why anyone would think salamanders were separately created from other kinds based on these observations.

I would describe it more as a consequence of having a larger genome.

There are different species of onion that look very similar but have very different genome sizes. I’m not sure what impact that would have on their metabolism or cellular reproductive rates.

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Of course I am. But also, as mentioned, this explosion in transposons seems unique to salamanders.

I would like to find out.

Another article about dating…when I clicked on it thought it was going to mention some details about a paper that recently came up in my feed about ancient DNA from Scottish islands, I think it was. But instead it was about France. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/homo-sapiens-humans-europe-migration-earlier-france-rock-shelter it’s interesting to me when dating can look “dumb.” It seems relatively straightforward that these described events should be happening within years or decades or each other, not tens of thousands of years. I also thought that the idea that early homo sapiens sailed along the Mediterranean coast was an added bonus. :slightly_smiling_face: Anyway, my confirmation bias is showing so I’ll stop. :laughing:

From the article:

this new solution invokes those exceedingly high lunar tides to have heated the early earth to prevent the earth from being an ice world.

This has been understood for some time.

Candidates for this role included methane and carbon dioxide. Problems soon developed with each proposed resolution to the paradox. For instance, some proposed greenhouse gases would have resulted in increased cloud cover on earth, with clouds reflecting away much of the incoming energy that the greenhouse gases were supposed to hold in. If the incoming radiation never reached the ground, then the mechanism to avoid the young faint sun paradox could not work.

Of course it would work. Venus is right there in front of us for crying out loud.

The trend now is to blend elements of several solutions to the young faint sun paradox into a hybrid.

Sure. Reality can be a package deal with several factors. I can gain weight due to all of genetics, overeating, and lack of exercise. That is not some sort of awkward deflection or trick, and for sure does not invalidate the pounds. Tidal heating would have been greater, there was over double the radioactive heating, heat of accretion, and the early earth did have a completely different atmosphere.

It is questionable whether early life required the sun at all. Metabolism could have been based on hydrothermal energy.

The energy balance of the early earth is an interesting problem, but the paradox is just a label. The nascent planet could definitely been habitable, although not so much by us.

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Here was the article he was responding to. https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-sun-was-dimmer-when-earth-formed-how-did-life-emerge-20220127/

As Faulkner mentioned, it is ironic when mainstream scientists invoke fine tuning of several processes because there is no independent explanation with a feedback loop.

I searched for more info about this and the scientists’ own writing about it was fascinating so I created a separate post so replies would probably be best there. New research suggests modern humans lived in Europe 10,000 years earlier than previously thought

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No, it’s supposed to expose exactly a failure to appreciate the whole picture of the variations in genome size between species. Junk-DNA is a sort of null-hypothesis that explains that, and asking about onions, in comparison, can show how more specific hypotheses are really just ad-hoc and don’t make sense of the bigger picture.
The point is that if you think you’ve found some unique functional explanation why some species X has so much non-coding DNA, how does that explanation fare when you start comparing different species? If you think humans specifically need that much non-coding DNA to function, why would onions need five times more? And why would different species of onions, ostensibly similar in complexity and environment, need considerably different amounts?

Even very similar species can have very large differences in genome size, so it becomes very difficult for any one explanation for large amounts of non-coding DNA to account for the large variations there are. You’d have to come up with some unique explanation for each individual species, or at least a very large number of explanations for certain groups.

This generally makes for a very poor scientific explanation it becomes difficult to test, as you could in principle always assume that there’s some unique special circumstance with species X that explains why it needs that specific amount of non-coding DNA, and why another species needs a different amount - and that this special circumstance just doesn’t show up in your lab experiment.

The hypothesis that most (but not all) non-coding DNA is nonfunctional junk explains the large variations by considering what the nature of this junk-DNA is. It is mostly degraded transposons, pseudogenes, remnants of ancient viral infections, and various repetitive elements. Mechanistically this explains why it can expand in size in a relatively short amount of time.
And then there’s considerations from population genetics about mutational load in relationship to mutation rate, genome size, and population size, that explains why some species can carry lots of junk DNA, while others quickly get rid of it. It’s known as the drift-barrier hypothesis.

Think of prokaryotes vs large multicellular plants and animals. Prokaryotes have tiny streamlined genomes almost entirely void of transposons, and with comparatively little non-coding DNA (something in the 20-30% range of total genome size) and enormous population sizes, while on the other end animals and plants have giant genomes with almost the entirety being non-coding (and most of this being transposons) but much smaller effective population sizes.

I highly recommend watching this entire presentation by Michael Lynch on the drift barrier hypothesis in relation to the evolution of a host of cellular characteristics, ranging from genome size, organism and cell size, to metabolic and mutation rates:

This idea that the junk-DNA hypothesis is some sort of argument from ignorance (as if scientists can’t figure out what it does so they just give up and declare it nonfunctional junk because evolution demands it) is both factually and historically false. Extremely good evidence amassed over half a century of research has led to the conclusion that most non-coding DNA in multicellular eukaryotes is actually nonfunctional junk. People who think otherwise are simply misinformed.

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Glad to hear it.

Honestly yes. Though you have not stated as much in words, I think you’ve made statements that amount to something similar in practice.
For example your recurring threads focusing on examples where past tentative conclusions in science were later altered or overturned in light of more recent findings.

It is not difficult to see how you could effectively waste the rest of your life chasing every new suggestion that some model is incomplete or inconsistent with observation in the hope that, eventually, the entire ship of science will turn around and in some obscure and distant future young Earth creationism will be vindicated.

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Every clade is going to have something unique to that clade. That’s how evolution works.

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As with most of biology, there are exceptions. The bladderwort is a parasitic plant with a genome of just 82 million bases compared to the 3,000 million base human genome (i.e. just 3% the size of the human genome). From memory, more than 90% (95+%) of the bladderwort genome is considered to be functional which makes sense since it has about the same gene content as other plant genomes. The bladderwort got rid of nearly all of its junk DNA, and it does just fine.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12132

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Or consider fugu, with a genome 1/8 the size of yours.

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And a similar thing appears to be true for another related carnivorous plant:

In this case it even has an unexpectedly low number of protein coding genes too, in addition to having very little non-coding DNA. IIRC similar things are found with other carnivorous plants.

That seems to suggest the carnivorous plants have been under some combination of unusually strong selection against genome size expansion and/or biased mutation pressure.

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That harkens back to the first arguments surrounding genome sizes. Contrary to how IDcreationists may portray this topic, the first hypotheses in the 40’s and 50’s was that most of the human genome would be functional because natural selection would eliminate wasteful uses of resources. That hypothesis may still hold some truth, but may only apply in cases of plants living in environments with low levels of free nitrogen and phosphorous. So low, in fact, that they evolved strategies to extract those nutrients from animals they capture.

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Yes, and in cases where species have enormous effective population sizes, such that the tiny metabolic and mutational load-costs associated with excess functionless nucleic acids in the genome become visible to selection (explained well in the presentation by Michael Lynch above).

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