A Pop-fly to Left Field of Space

That’s helpful, too! Thanks.

Somewhere in that is a line (I can’t find it now) to the effect of …,

Some physicists think matter and energy may be folded bits of space-time, others think space-time may be a product of matter and energy.

That’s either total nonsense or deeply profound. Possibly both! :slight_smile:

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I would think that space cannot be the same type of “thing” as matter. I would think that if they were then matter woud not be able to exist within space and freely move in it. But, I don’t know if that is necessarily true. Quantum particles seem to permeate space in such a way that they spontaniusly manifest from a vacum. So, maybe space is just a quantum sea or field. But, I haven’t been able to find that. There is an article that Dan listed that I have yet to read, so maybe there will be an answer for me.

This is why I say it has to be a “thing”, consisting of a material and structure. Expanding is an action of physical materials. I know that using the word material draws up images of things space cannot be, but the action of expanding does too. Even without expanding, curving, & telling matter (I’m not sure if we can describe light as matter or not, but light fits into the category of things space directs) how to move, the fact that it exists and contains everything else leads me to the same place.

I woud’t think it was thinning out, but the idea of a worm hole means it can be perferated in order to create the bridge between 2 points in space (I believe the math says this is possible, but mathmatically possible can’t always mean actually possible). When we talk about it expanding, the balloon is the clasic analogy, which will thin until it bursts. Do we mean space is expanding like the balloon, or is space expanding by it being newly created like the continental drift; beginning in the trenches at the bottom of the sean, new crust is created and pushes the plates outward? I have nothing but questions.

It’s nice to know I’m not the only one asking questions way above his pay grade.

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In reading from the links provided, it didn’t take me long to realize that this question has been simply asked as many times as it has been sophisticatedly not answered, and will be not answered as many times as is necessary. I think the guy who said it is magic is correct. The person who replied,

“--------Physicists have a tendency to talk about spacetime as if it were a thing, maybe something like the rubber sheet so beloved of popular science explanations of GR. However spacetime is not a thing - it is a mathematical construction.-------”

He is saying it is magic, but he doesn’t realize it. He is saying that space is magical runes. But the guy who said,

“-------_ spacetime is not a thing - it is a mathematical construction_ how is that so? We physically can tell which among 2 nonidentical empty boxes has more space in it…we know if there is space enough for another passenger in a car full of people…We can physically understand space, can we not? We know for fact that galaxies are moving away from us in space and thus space is expanding …So how can it “space” produce all the effects and still be a non existing thing, a simple mathematical thing ?-------”

He understands my problem with all attempts at answering this question. I am going to just accept that there is no answer to this question other than it is magic. We all live in a great big bubble of magic. The universe is the magicians hat, and we are the rabbit. Given this is the only answer, I must find what worldview best accepts all of existence existing within a bubble of magic. In the absence of an answer that makes sense, I will create my own.

Thanks for the dialogue. If anything comes up that gives an answer, please let me know.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

– Arthur C Clarke.

God’s ‘technology’ is above, and super- to, natural, and thus supernatural, more than a little advanced compared to ours.

…therefore any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.

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I was going to misquote that as …

Any sufficiently advanced mathematics is indistinguishable from magic.

:smile:

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No, it isn’t magic. And the person that you quote is not saying that it is magic.

What it amounts to, is that you are having difficulties with fitting it into your system of concepts.

I am not having such problems. And perhaps that makes it hard for me to understand why you are having that problem.

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Sounds about right to me. :grin:

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I guess I’m envisioning sort of 2 meanings to “space”:

  1. the coordinate system for length we place on the universe. The expansion of space is then just marking the edge of the coordinate system.
  2. a “container” for the universe. Because all the matter in the universe is inside it, and it itself is not made up of matter, but just marks the extent of matter, we revert to (1)

In either case, I don’t see it as material, but I deal with chemistry so I never have to worry about it, thankfully :slight_smile:

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You never run out of room in the lab?? :slight_smile:

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I am sorry if my comment caused any offense. It was just a satirical way of saying that all answers fall short, are lacking, and insufficient. The universe is not a mathematical construct in the sens that it is just numbers and variables. It is obviously “a thing” that is quite distiguishable from numbers, which are not things themselves. I agree that math can be used to describe and predict the workings of the universe. I am sure that you would agree that mathematics is a mental tool, but has no weight, no speed, no mass, no ability to alter the path of light, or govern the habits of planets and stars.

That makes it sound a bit like the liner of a pool. It is just the thing that separates what is not the pool from all that is in the pool. But, space is not just the the edges, it is nore like the water.The sea would be a better analogy to me: the water containes all that is in the sea, but the water is not the same as fish, whales, and submarines. Space is all around us and in us. In the grand scheme of things it doesn’t matter. It is just a question that is never answered, even though it is responsible for gravity and is the only thing that can travel faster than light. I guess it is just such a foundational thing that we can never reduce to constituent parts.