A YLC is Bemused At Others Engaging Evidence

I must admit, the so very serious manner in which you all approach this subject is just a little humorous to a YLC like me. Wasn’t it shown some years back that and single couple from the Garden could have easily populated the planet? Your answer will be Yes, but we must make allowance for all the ape-men to get in the mix. Sorry, but it’s just not necessary in my paradigm and that’s what makes it funny to listen to. I guess I am relieved that I don’t have all that so-called evidence to account for as you do. Sorry to interrupt. I guess I am trolling.

[apologies again. I know these things are important to you]

For us, honesty and accuracy in the science is pretty important. I don’t see any need for an ancient DNA bottleneck, but others do. I want to be trustworthy in how I represent the evidence to others.

Why is this bemusing?

I made an error. Never mind. You are different somehow. I haven’t figured it out yet, but you are just different. That’s all I can say. Though I must disagree with you on things, I for some reason am not allowed to engage you in an argument. Must be something spiritual for lack of a better understanding. Carry on. I said nothing. (What I forgot anyway is that the true bottleneck for my paradigm is Noah and his family anyway, so I missed it there). Carry on.

You can engage me in a friendly argument if you like :wink: . What is the topic?

Over at The Skeptical Zone there have been several threads about the evidence for common descent. In the end each thread was thousands of comments long. And basically none of the creationists present would admit that there was any evidence for common descent of, well, anything with anything. We kept hearing that this could all be due to “common design”, a notion that explains everything that we see but also everything that we don’t see. Or that they wouldn’t believe in common descent until we had explained, in detail, all of the changes since the common ancestor. I’m supposed to be Peaceful here so I will not further characterize their mindset. That it was a frustrating experience for the rest of us would be putting it mildly.

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Believe me it’s every bit as frustrating here too. The big difference is here we’re not allowed to call out the ID-Creationists no matter how disingenuous their behavior.

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True dat.

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I suspect that at some point, “common design” philosophically collapses into “common descent”. Scientists are usually only concerned with the quantifiable observables. It is impossible to scientifically rule out the notion that the universe popped into existence Last Thursday or in 4000 BC, while appearing to be billions of years old. It is an unfalsifiable philosophical commitment. From a purely quantifiable, observable point of view there is no difference between this “common design” position and the conventional one that the universe actually is billions of years old (or that living things actually share a common ancestor).

Therefore, once somebody deploys the “common design” gambit (without rigorously defining what it is in scientifically quantifiable, observable terms), the debate has become a foundational philosophical dispute rather than a scientific one.

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Condescending pseudo-apology, you mean. You are, after all, so much ahead of us that you can bless us with such gifts as this:

Thankfully, you haven’t given us your hubris.

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That is it exactly. Yes, God could have created each and every creature, by design, to look exactly like it would had it descended from a common ancestor. Ultimately, this looks like omphalos hypothesis, and as noted, there is no way then to disprove it. The nested hierarchies will all be there. But it makes little sense that God world restrict His creations to such a constraint when he has a blank slate with every entity. If you cannot distinguish such a creation by entity from one created by natural principle, why not just lay down the principle and let it unfold as a unity?

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Naw, you are missing something. He would have no reason (agreeing with you) to create trying to give the illusion of a common ancestor. But there is commonality in physical things like gravity (I know, it’s a weird argument) that necessarily guided his creation of creatures fit for survival on the planet he made.
Gravity had to be overcome whether on land or in the seas or in the air.

  1. On land, a specific phenotype had to be created to push against and overcome gravity and survive.
  2. In the seas, a different phenotype than that on land had to be created.
  3. In the air, a phenotype all its own had to be found in those creatures.

My point is that something as simple as the gravity he created and the fact that creatures had to push against it, stand, run, move, generally overcome in order to survive, could cause creatures to appear to have arisen from a common starting point.

That must be why spiders, elephants, cobras, and oak trees look so much alike

That must be why manatees, jellyfish, and crabs looks so much alike.

That must be why birds, bats, mosquitoes, and pterosaurs look so much alike.

You might want to think this through just a bit more. :slightly_smiling_face:

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I’m afraid that experience shows that once he’s come up with an argument, he’s done with it.

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This would be a commonality in physical function leads to a commonality in form [design] type argument. It doesn’t take long, however, for the discussion to veer back to commonality due to some type of blueprint which looks like descent. Sharks and orca whales live in similar ecological niches with the same physical constraints with superficially similar body plans, but their anatomies strongly follow from family classification.

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If calling them out is not allowed here, how did this thread get split off and given that title? :slight_smile:

There you go, everyone: Critical thinking as YEC’s think it’s done. And we are the ones who must teach them how it’s supposed to be done.

The battle will be hard, brothers and sisters.

The requirement of the animal
to overcome gravity,
to retain a center of gravity no matter its mass/size,
to process oxygen,
to survive atmospheric pressure, hydrostatic pressure
etc for the ones I haven’t considered
How and where do these enter into the naturalist discussion?
Given these natural forces and your idea of common descent, why did not just a single land animal arise, a single air-borne creature arise, and a single sea creature arise?

What about them do you think needs discussing?

Because there are millions of different ecological niches each with its own unique selection pressures and opportunities for evolution to explore different solutions.

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r_speir,
Why do you think there is more than one species of fox?

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