(actually I think everyone knows God exists anyway)

This was the first question that got me really thinking on the validity of Christianity. There is no really no way of telling who is right or wrong. Has a Muslim ever used Pascal’s wager on you before?


Yeah, I do find it insulting and dehumanizing to have “God” injected into that formulation. It’s also a bit insulting the animals to refer to them as “lower” forms. But being descended from our marvelous ancestors? Hardly insulting! I would love to be able to take a walk back in time and visit the cynodonts, among others. They might have been lousy conversationalists, but I have no difficulty finding lousy conversationalists among my own contemporaries, so that’s not a big deal.


Yes, it’s part of a biblical worldview. See Romans 1 and Paul preaching in Acts 17. It reflects the fact that we as humans best represent humanity when we have knowledge of God and reflect his image by following Him. It is an exclusivity claim. But anyone can join :slight_smile:

But the image of God is also the basis for morality in our culture and for treating others as having value. So you’re basing your criticism of me for saying people are rejecting God using a worldview founded by the Bible.

If I value you, I have to tell you the truth. I do not want anyone to be dehumanized by themselves or others.

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I don’t think anyone is troubled by your opinions. Your humanity shines through. :vulcan_salute:

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Sorry, no. It’s also irrelevant to your claim that this thread began with. The moral thing to do would be to acknowledge that people who say they don’t believe in God are not lying and really don’t believe. Try to put yourself in someone else’s shoes, which is closer to a real basis of morality than anything you have mentioned.

It dehumanizes me to tell me that I don’t really think what I think.


@thoughtful Well maybe John does, but you pay attention to that others think, and try to understand. That makes a huge difference.

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I think she has established that she does neither. Right here, she’s even denied that others think what they think.


At this point I think it would be best for you to take up your complaint with your Maker.

Why are you choosing this subject matter to be “insulted”? I suspect that it is because you are unable to present evidence to the contrary? In other words, it boils down to your word against God’s Word. But since you cannot prove that you as a human do not possess a spiritual dimension, your choice is to cry “Insult”.

No, I’m not troubled by her opinions, but I would be if she were in any position of power. I just want her to realize what she’s saying and why it’s insulting.


I think this statement nicely captures what the conversation is about (for me) and why I am glad that @John_Harshman started it. For me, the question isn’t whether you are a cruel person who is willing to dehumanize others for some selfish gain. You seem thoughtful and aware of what the concerns are. @Dan_Eastwood is right about that.

The problem is that “the truth” that you feel you need to tell me is in fact dehumanizing crap. Whether it came from Paul or from Jesus or from Satan is not relevant to the person who hears you say, “You can’t even accurately report on what you yourself believe.” That is dehumanizing. It is indeed textbook dehumanization.

It seems that you have been led to this misanthropic place by a religion. That religion, IMO, is built to a large extent on textbook dehumanization. Such is the challenge, and tragedy, of confronting Christianity as a skeptic and especially as an apostate.


Lots of “dehumanizing crap” is purveyed on this forum.

I view empathy as one of the cornerstones of civil behaviour and peaceful communication.

To the two YECs currently active in this thread - I’m fascinated by your apparent reluctance to put yourself into another’s shoes (an atheist’s shoes) and acknowledge the insult as described in the first post.

Did you try? What happened when you did?

Or have you not tried yet? Will you?

I’m genuinely interested in your answers. Thank you.


You should be more fascinated that you are fascinated. Here is my answer from another recent thread:

@thoughtful says, “Jesus was human, yes.”

@Michael_Okoko responds, “That means Jesus shared a common ancestor with chimpanzees,”

When I dared to call it blasphemy, another rushed to the defense of @Michael_Okoko

@AllenWitmerMiller said, “What do chimpanzees have to do with blasphemy?”

That’s why I was bold enough to state here that

“Lots of “dehumanizing crap” is purveyed on this forum.”

You should be fascinated at your fascination against my position.

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People often voice “dehumanizing crap” when they are unable to control how others believe.


That Humanity and “Chimpanity” share a common origin, at least according to science, is a very general statement. I don’t see how that would prevent God from making Humanity special in some way. If this is an insult, then I’m insulting myself as much as anyone else. It’s not personal.

Compare this to being told you do not understand your own thoughts. That is both insulting and personal.

We are all human. This isn’t something we should need to argue about.


I do try to understand and am interested in what others think.

I stand with Paul in noticing how you think.
Acts 17

So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of [Peaceful Forum], I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: ‘To the unknown god [of the origin of life].’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,[c] 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for

“‘In him we live and move and have our being’;[d]

as even some of your own poets have said,

“‘For we are indeed his offspring.’[e]

29 Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone [or rocks or stars or the sun or cells], an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.”

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Okay so I have to ask what runs through the minds of creationists when they are quoting Bible-verses at atheists in place of arguments. You understand that we generally don’t believe in or consider the Bible as authoritative on any of these subjects?

The Bible doesn’t know how I think, and quoting it at me in support of your insulting declaration that I somehow believe differently from what I’m telling you, and that you know this because some old book you own says so, is no less insulting than it was to begin with. It’s frankly even worse.


Name-dropping and appeal to authority are not good arguments. I don’t think you notice how I think at all. Paul certainly couldn’t have.

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The Bible is inspired. God knows how you think, so I thought that was the best passage to display how many in this forum appear to a Christian.

I have yet to see you give a well-argued case against the existence of God. Usually you just compare Him to a cartoon. You don’t even try to make a good case, so I’m not so certain you’re just not mad at Him.