(actually I think everyone knows God exists anyway)

I choose a parenthetical remark by @thoughtful to begin a new thread. I’ve seen this claim made many times. Would anyone care to affirm it or even argue or present evidence for its truth?

There’s no need for anyone to argue that it’s false. I think most of us know that. But do any of you making the claim realize that it’s insulting? The claim entails that we’re either lying to your, ourselves, or both.


Ah, the good ole rebellion thesis. Even Christians like Randal Rauser have written extensively about it and how not only is itjust crazy wrong, but also insulting.


I know that you think it is false, but I am not convinced it is. Man is spirit and that spirit is from God and was made in God’s image. It would be hard to get around that point. The most one could probably claim is that he consciously denies that God exists. In doing so, he would not be able to convincingly claim that his deeper consciousness felt the same.

Even demons do not believe in Atheists.

James in the Bible declares
“You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!”

I have long suspected anyway that a human disbelief in God may in fact be impossible. Some believe Atheism is better termed “Misotheism”.

I no longer believe in Santa Claus, but I don’t hate Santa Claus. :santa:

There are any number of things I do not believe in. Why should I waste time hating them?

There are anti-theists among atheists, who often harbour great resentment toward the church, but none of these claim the church does not exist.


In the words of the Righteous Agnostic: I don’t know what God is thinking, and neither does anyone else.

That’s not exactly on topic, but I think it easily adapts to cover this situation.

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Because you were not made in the image of Santa Clause but rather in the image of God. The human spirit would naturally not hate that thing that is fiction. It would however be prone to hate that which it unconsciously knew to be true.

I think the claim is insulting and dehumanizing. I also think this is the price we pay when interacting with Christianity. Many Christians, here at PS and elsewhere, have either disclaimed this kind of crap or are aware that it’s rude and dehumanizing to say it (even if they believe it). But it’s easy to find statements like this in Christian belief and writings. Meaning that I actually think it would be unfair to “blame” @thoughtful or most Christians for talking and behaving with such disrespect. Christianity is imbued with it.


Why would it be prone to that? That makes no sense. If I “unconsciously” knew that 2+2=4 then why the flying fork would I be prone to hate that?

This “you secretly/subconsciously know God exists” apologetic is really the worst of them all. It really just looks like a story that believers like to bounce around amongst themselves. I suspect it’s the theistic equivalent of the statement “religious people only believe because they can’t accept that they’ll one day be dead and gone”.

And I have to say, as an apologetics tool it’s probably as effective as if I were to say “religion is only for people who’re too stupid to understand science”. Can you feel how compelled you are to leave your religion when reading that statement?

Please understand that, whatever that claim is causing you to experience as you read it is exactly what atheists experience when religious people say “actually everyone knows God exists anyway”.


Which God? Humans have described thousands (at least). And let’s avoid the breath-takingly arrogant “Mine, of course! The only true one!”


It’s really a matter of being respectful towards others. If someone says they don’t believe in God then the respectful thing to do is take them at their word. Telling others what they “really believe” is disrespectful. For example, you say that you believe in God and I take you at your word. I would never say, “Whatever, you really don’t believe in God. You are an atheist like me.”


I’m not sure I understand your argument there, if it’s in fact an argument. It doesn’t seem related to evidence at all. Or to reasoning. Why would it be impossible for a person created in God’s image not to know that and to disbelieve in God’s existence?

You have presented no evidence for that claim either. Have you ever asked a demon about that?

You may have long suspected it, but do you have any sort of argument?


There are many of us who aren’t convinced that Man is spirit that comes from God and that we were made in the image of God. What more do we need to say other than we don’t believe in it?

Easy for you to say. It would be more meaningful if we heard from the demons themselves.


‘False consciousness’ is a pernicious concept, IMO, whether in Marxism or any other ideology.

I would never presume to tell someone else that they are wrong about what they themselves think.


I already gave you that. I did not deny you that privilege in your mental faculty. I merely pointed out that you are more than mental. I believe the spirit of man well knows that God exists. Spirit speaks to spirit. One’s opposition to who created them and how they were created can really only go as far as the voice will carry. Other than that, one is no more or no less than the product of God and that product carries specific features with it. The feature in this discussion is the spirit of man.

I would not expect that of you. But you should fully expect that of me since I fully engage the Bible text with my belief system. Why would deny me that?

Go ahead and deny that your spirit exists. Contrariwise, I will contend that your spirit very much exists.

Will you deny me my Bible rights?

‘Christian exceptionalism’ is likely to go about as well as American exceptionalism…

But no, to be internally consistent I can’t and won’t tell you that you are mistaken about what you think (even if I think that what you think is mistaken). :wink:


How is it that I don’t know what my spirit knows, then?

I have no idea what that was supposed to mean. Can you explain? Of course I have no opposition to God, just as I have no opposition to Yosemite Sam. And what’s that about my voice carrying?

So you claim. But what does my spirit have to do with what I know or believe?

I presume you are unwilling to engage with the claim that you are insulting ahteists.


Your Bible rights, and any other freedoms you enjoy, do not extend to denying the humanity of others.

You have a right to misanthropy. I continue to hope you might show us a better side of yourself. It wouldn’t hurt you to show a little compassion, empathy, humor, or any other of those emotions that make us human.


Why would that be insulting? It just makes you part of the world that God said was very good. But if that’s what you believe, I can see why you reject all the evidence.

Still, just because you feel insulted is no justification for insulting others, is it?


Which “man”, neanderthals, denisovans or sapiens? And how do we know we are made in God’s image?