Boris Badenoff: Adam and Eve and Astrotheology

Conversation
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I did. The dates for the birth and death of Jesus.

As you may remember I do not believe that such a person as Jesus Christ ever existed. So we are talking about the birth of a new solar deity described in the New Testament. Rev 12:1 “A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” Now who do you think that could be? The crown of twelve stars are the nine stars of the constellation Leo (which is why Jesus is called the “Lion of Judah”) plus the planets Mercury, Venus and Jupiter. The woman is the constellation Virgo the the virgin and is of course the basis for the Virgin Mary. She is clothed in the sun which means the sun is in the γαστρι (womb; verse 2). She is giving birth to Jesus. She suffers ωδινω (birth pangs; verse 2) Revelation12:5: “And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne;” Who do you think that might be? Santa Claus? This particular conjunction is the beginning of the Age of Pisces which occurred on September 11th 3BCE. Moving 30 degrees the sun was in the constellation Aquila which is John the Baptist who baptized Jesus around the age of 30. During the summer solstice the sun appears to stop moving and is at the top of the zodiac. This is why Jesus spends three days preaching in the synagogue at the age of twelve. During the winter solstice the sun also appears to stop moving and disappear below the horizon which is of course represented by Jesus’ three-day death. This is why trying to prove Jesus was an actual historical personage is such an incredibly foolish endeavor. Any questions?

Now even conservative Christian scholars and ministers know about this. D. James Kennedy, the founder of Knox Seminary in Fort Lauderdale, preached that the gospel story was prefigured in the sky long before it was ever written down. Many others have and do as well. This is not something dreamed up by atheists or other critics. So call this “insane” if you like. I couldn’t care less.

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No doubt some were. That does not prove that any part of any Gospel narrative was derived from passages of Homer. To show that would require a very precise and sustained literary analysis of a given work of Homer and a given Gospel. No such analysis has been presented here – only a series of weak parallels and loose speculative connections. A strong case, if it could be made, would be worthy of publication in journals dealing with Homeric studies and Biblical studies. B. Badenoff is welcome to submit his claims to such journals. Has he done so? If not, why not?

Of course, the “twelve” here, and throughout Revelation, couldn’t possibly refer to the twelve tribes of Israel… and association of “Judah” with the lion couldn’t possibly have derived from Genesis 49:9…

It is noteworthy that this statement contains two errors: Jesus did not “preach”, but “listened” to the teachers, and “asked” questions and “answered” their questions; and this took place not in any “synagogue” but in the Temple. See Luke 2:46-47.

Further, even the number “three” is questionable. The text says that his parents found him “after three days” – but what was the starting-point of the three-day period? They travelled a day’s journey from Jerusalem before realizing he was missing; then they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. That’s a total of two days already. At that point the text says that “after three days” they found him in the Temple. If “after three days” refers to a period starting upon their return to Jerusalem, then it was a total of five days before they found Jesus; and if we presume that he went straight to the Temple on the day they first left Jerusalem to go home, then he was in the Temple for a total of five days, which would dissolve the “three” number pattern that B. Badenoff is eager to preserve so that he can employ his Greek-mythical interpretation of the passage. (Of course, “after three days” might refer to the whole period from the time his parents headed home, but we have no assurance of that.)

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with an interpretation just becomes it comes from atheists or other critics. The problem with the interpretation being pushed here is not that it comes from unbelievers, but that, whether it comes from unbelievers or believers, it’s based on parallels that are weak, forced, or nonexistent, and on reasoning from loose associations of ideas and words. It’s irrelevant whether a Christian or an unbeliever offers an interpretation, if the interpretation is unscholarly and unconvincing. A bad interpretation does not become stronger for being endorsed by the head of a fundamentalist college. So the fact that D. James Kennedy agrees with B. Badenoff (assuming that D. James Kennedy’s reading of the relevant passages is not being misrepresented, which is not at all impossible) does not make B. Badenoff’s interpretation even slightly more plausible. What would make it more plausible is more scholarly and competent Greek exegesis of passages. What has been presented here is no more convincing than the arguments that Bacon wrote Shakespeare.

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This is all bible-code-ish nonsense. I’m unable to take any of it seriously.

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Completely irrelevant to the GAE.

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Yes. How can a prediction of Jesus’s birthday be accurate if Jesus didn’t exist and thus didn’t have a birthday?

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Your entire astrotheology speculation has been extraordinarily speculative, and this is but one example.

Those who understand the Jewish roots of Jesus and his movement interpret the 12 stars as the 12 tribes of Israel.

Besides, why would the roster still of planets not include Mars and Saturn, yielding 14 stars in the crown?

I am sure you can fabricate an answer, of course. Once you embark on the astrotheology path, there is no need to be grounded by provenance, historical criticism, genre assessment, and other tools that require hard, patient work in a community of scholars, is there?

If you would like to listen attentively to a critique of your position, let me know. I have no intention of investing any more time in trying to convince you that you might have something to learn in this forum, if you’re not interested.

Best,
Chris

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I am familiar with Kennedy’s teaching, and trust me, you should not be citing him as a supporter of astrotheology. You are distorting his statement beyond recognition.

Of course, you are distorting the Scriptures as well, so I shouldn’t be surprised.

Have a blessed day all the same,
Chris

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In case anyone hasn’t figured this out Van Smack is me Boris. I’m not sure why I couldn’t sign on as Boris today.

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You can’t associate the astrology in the Bible with modern day horoscopes, fortune telling and the rest of that nuttiness. All religions are based on astrology and Judaism and Christianity are what are known as “New Age” religions because they are based on the coming of new astrological ages. In today’s world the phrase “New Age” is more likely to be associated with people like Gwyneth Paltrow and things like her Goop than with its true meaning.

After crossing the sea the Israelites came to Shor, the Place of the Ox (Taurus) but couldn’t find any water. So they went to Elim or the Place of the Rams (Aries) where there were twelve springs and seventy date palms. Here we have the clue that these are not actual places on Earth but rather based on celestial occurrences in the heavens. The first enemy the Israelites met were the Amalekites who like the sea the Israelites crossed and land they came upon cannot be found in the historical record. The story that says the Israelites crossed the Red Sea is based on a mistranslation in the Septuagint. This appears in the Song of Moses where the text describes the Pharaoh’s men being κατεποντισεν εω ερυφρα θαλασση (cast into [the] Red Sea). The correct translation depends on which vowel is used in for the second word Hebrew word Yam Suf or Yam Sof. The Hebrew word suf means “reed” and sof means “end.” Yam Sof makes more sense considering the story’s mythological character. The sea Odysseus crossed returning to Ithaca was an End Sea, a mythical body of water which is, like the sea crossed in Exodus, very dangerous but also not on any maps. Homer describes the end sea as being “wine dark” or οινοψ ποντος which probably led to the confusion that caused the mistranslation in the Septuagint since the biblical writers were very familiar with Homer and based many of their narratives on the Homeric Epics.

Their territory (also not on any maps) is called Havilah which extends from Shor the Place of the Bull and is a word for the concept of “circular motion.” So the Amalekites represent the zodiacal sign of Taurus. Their ways and traditions define them as a group who refuse to enter the new era of Aries therefore they must be annihilated. A battle ensues at Rephidim which means “supported.” The ridiculous nature of this encounter is not to be ignored. The biblical writers were well aware of their audience’s critical sensibilities. When Moses raises his staff which represents the celestial poles, the Israelites have the advantage but when he tires and the staff disappears from view the tide of the battle favors the Amalekites. Moses, Aaron and Hur represent Orion’s Belt which in turn represents accurate measuring. This battle is a metaphor for an intellectual conflict over the fallacious ideas of the past based on incorrect interpretations of the sons of God or the watchers. In other words the stars.

And where do you think the idea for the twelve tribes of Israel came from? No such tribes ever existed. Neither did the twelve disciples or the twelve gates of the city. Obviously this number is derived from the zodiac. The Bible gives us a confusing account about which tribes belonged to which kingdoms. The Song of Deborah names eleven political entities, three of which do not bear the names of the sons of Jacob: Gilead, Meroz and Machir. This should cause curious reader some concern. If only there were more discerning readers of the biblical texts and fewer who just take the Bible literally.

Because of their alignment at that particular time.

Community of “scholars” with tools doing “hard” work? Sure. They’re the problem but this community is being pushed out of the way mostly because no one pays any attention to them anymore except within their own little circle of superstition and ignorance.

Have you ever thought that you might have something to learn in this forum, but you’re not interested? Go ahead let’s see a critique of my position.

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I gave you the birthday for the mythical solar character Jesus Christ.

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You don’t get it. What is irrelevant is GAE.

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Today’s religion is tomorrow’s mythology. Well tomorrow has arrived and now you’re reading yesterday’s news.

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I’m pretty sure this has been done. However the believing scholars behind these journals have their jobs and their own personal superstitions to protect. The examples I gave are not weak. You seem to think these stories have to be exact copies to be taken seriously. That isn’t how rhetorical writing was done in antiquity. Stories were retold again and again in order to make a brand new point. The author of Mark’s Gospel was not trying to hide what he was doing. The ancients would be shocked at how far the readers of these stories have regressed and how unsophisticated they have become. They would read the criticisms of my posts and shake their heads ruefully. And then laugh.

The twelve tribes and Genesis 49:9 couldn’t possibly have derived from the zodiac? If not, why not? Do you have any evidence that these tribes actually existed? Nope. For you the Bible says it so you believe it. Look at a map. Notice that the positioning of the seven churches in Revelation is based on the appearance of the seven stars known as the Pleiades Asterism located in the constellation Taurus. The Pleiades are often referred to in mythology and is also known as the Seven Sisters. They are also In the hand of the figure of Orion and the sword protruding from the mouth of Orion is known as Auriga the Charioteer. Now who else is holding seven stars (Revelation 3:1) and has a sword protruding from their mouth (Revelation 19:15)?

Who cares? The important part is the mention of three days.

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Say what??

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If you’re going to change your screen name, might I suggest continuing with the Rocky & Bullwinkle theme and go with “Peter J. Peachfuzz”?

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It may be irrelevant to you but its of serious relevance to a lot of people.

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Give me an exact date. And explain why that date was chosen based on some factor other than that it allows you to engage in the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy.

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In spite of multiple requests, you have not provided any indication of how this prediction would be tested.

Many have provided the critique, but you have not been listening.

Very few scholars of religion–among them Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and atheists–would agree with this. Your boundless repetition of the assertion does not make it true.

Thank you for sharing this opinion.

You seem to think that the vaguest similarity is proof of your hypothesis.

An ad hominem attack on those who disagree with you.

This is absolutely 100% wrong, as anyone vaguely familiar with Western constellations knows.

image

Are you still certain that the Pleiades are “in the hand of the figure of Orion”?

I care. The fact that you are careless in your citations to literature damages your credibility. In turn, this damages the case you are making in this forum.

Let’s test this empirically:

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R6140163-Optical_image_of_the_Pleiades_star_cluster (2)

There is some resemblance between the 5 city group of Pergamum, Thyatira, Smyrna, Sardis, and Laodicea and 5 of the stars of the Pleiades.

However, if I were writing in the first century and my goal were not to write to churches in major cities but rather to emphasize astrotheology and the 7 sisters of the Pleiades, I would definitely NOT have included Ephesus and Philadelphia among the churches. Instead, I would have looked for smaller towns in the correct location.

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Bottom line, the empirical support for your assertion clearly does not exist.

Best,
Chris

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Why? The story is not original. It’s borrowed and repurposed from much the older Babylonian and Egyptian creation stories - just like the rest of the Bible.

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You’ve never heard or seen that expression before? It seems like everything I say goes right over your head. In fact I know it does.