Boris Badenoff: Adam and Eve and Astrotheology

I did. September 11th 3BCE. The beginning of the Age of Pisces.

Do you think I care? If those people agreed with me I would be wrong. I wouldn’t expect “scholars” of religion to agree. They have an agenda that relies on the Bible being based on remembered history instead of astrology. They also want to keep their jobs.

It’s not an opinion. What happened to the Gods on Mount Olympus?

They get what they give.

This story only appears in Luke which is the alternative facts gospel. This author is NOT an historian. We have no name, no qualifications, no sources, no discussion of his methodology, none of the things a real historian would tell his readers. Plus we know he used Mark as a source and changed a lot of things and he even lied about doing that. He also used Josephus and we know that because he repeated some things Josephus got wrong. So we know where this Jesus in the temple as child comes from. The author made it up.

Thank you. Map making has improved quite a bit in the last 2000 years.

You would have found these how 2000 years ago?

Correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t you the person who just a couple of days ago wrote, “Thanks for bringing these interesting ideas to the forum. I had never heard of astrotheology previously.” And now you’re an expert on a subject you had never heard of just a few days ago. Funny how that works. Except it doesn’t.
This is the kind of response I expect from believers. The proof is right there in front of you and you say it doesn’t exist. Your problem is that you have bought the greatest story ever sold. Jesus Christ never existed.

You must be used to that, given your vast intellectual superiority to everyone you encounter.

If it has been done, you should be able to provide references to journal articles.

No, they don’t have to be exact copies, but the parallels have to be much stronger than what you have presented. Some of the prophecies of Nostradamus and Jeane Dixon were closer to what actually happened than some of your parallels, and no serious scholar thinks the similarities are anything more than coincidence. (If you make enough predictions, eventually some of them will come approximately close to matching some future event, and people will ignore the vast majority of plainly false predictions and focus on the ones that “came true” – even if only very approximately and with very liberal allowances for differences. Similarly, if you dig up passages from enough ancient texts, you will eventually find lots of isolated bits that seem to match up with isolated bits from other texts, even though the overall character of the texts being compared is very different. People who are determined to match things up are very forgiving of discrepancies.)

Hypothetical. Since these ancients are dead and you cannot produce them as witnesses, your imaginary set of responses from them are of no argumentative force. You have to make your argument based on literary comparison. The tighter the comparison, the stronger the argument; the looser the comparison, the weaker the argument. Your comparisons are almost all on the loose side.

Since you have claimed academic training in religion, we care. Someone academically trained in the interpretation of Greek texts would not make such blunders. Such elementary reading errors suggest either that your academic training never took place or that you do not remember much of what you were taught. This does not inspire confidence in your speculations.

But as I showed above, the length of three days is in doubt. The story seems to indicate a five-day period. You have not dealt fully with the story.

In any case, “three” is such a common number in texts (as in daily life) that it’s unlikely to have symbolic significance every time it’s used; often it may just mean “three” and nothing more. As Freud supposedly said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But for you, every “three” in every ancient text has a coded meaning. And every twelve, and every seven, and every ox, and every ram…

There’s a difference between “disciplined textual scholarship” and “flying-by-the-seat-of-the-pants free association of words and ideas.” It’s not surprising, when you practice the latter rather than the former, that scholars show no interest in your work. You can of course claim that they all lack imagination or are in some sort of conspiracy against the truth you have discovered. Such things are possible. But equally possible, and much more probable, is that scholars who are highly trained in ancient languages, literature, and textual interpretive methods, can tell the difference between uncontrolled speculation and responsible textual study. I suspect that you will never convince anyone but other other autodidacts of your conclusions. But I’m always happy to be proved wrong, so let us know if you are ever able to get any of your work published in any respected academic organ.

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Many of the religion scholars in the graduate department where I studied were very skeptical about the historicity of much of the Bible. Many of them would have been glad to have confirmation that much of the New Testament was a “made-up” story generated by other concerns, e.g., political concerns, or even astrological concerns, as that would justify their belief that Jesus was neither God nor Lord and did not need to be obeyed. Yet none of them embraced the sort of speculation that you offer. So it’s not a religious “agenda” that causes such scholars to be non-receptive to your theories. Have you considered the possibility that religion scholars have read ideas such as yours in various popular works and do not think the evidence for them is very good? That’s it’s not any “agenda” but simply a judgment about the quality of “astrotheological scholarship” that explains their reaction?

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I don’t read or care about journals full of misinformation and speculations based on religious superstitions. That’s your deal.

Parable of the Wicked Tenants
Odyssey 16 — Mark 12:1-12
Odyssey: Odysseus built his house
Mark: A man planted a vineyard, put a fence around it… and built a watch tower.
Odyssey: Odysseus put his servants in charge
Mark: The man leased the vineyard to tenants
Odyssey: Odysseus and went off to fight in Troy
Mark: The man and went to another country
Odyssey: The suitors abused the master’s servants
Mark: The wicked tenants abused the master’s servants
Odyssey: The suitors and ate from the estate as though it were their own
Mark: The tenants kept the produce of the vineyard for themselves.
Odyssey: Telemachus, the beloved son, sought to regain his authority over the estate
Mark: The master sent his beloved son, his heir, to collect the produce from the vineyard
Odyssey: "then among them spoke Antinous… 'Let us devise for him a woeful death, for Telemachus… His property let ourselves keep and his treasure, dividing them fairly among us
Mark: “But those tenants said to one another, 'This is the heir; come let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours. '”
Odyssey: The suitors laid ambush for the son, but he eluded them.
Mark: The tenants seized him, killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard
Odyssey: Odysseus returned, destroyed the suitors and reestablished his authority
Mark: What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the tenants and give the vineyard to others.
Odyssey: The suitors had to be cautious because they were afraid the residents of Ithaca might drive them from the Island.
Mark: The religious authorities recognized that Jesus spoke this parable against them and wanted to arrest him, but they feared the crowd.
Now go ahead and tell me these similarities are just a coincidence. Because I can do the same thing with almost every story in the New Testament. They’re not supposed to be exact copies that tell the same story. Why can’t you understand that? They’re stories people were familiar with retold to tell a completely different story, make a different point or provide a different teaching.

I would love to take credit for discovering the astrological basis for the tales of the supernatural in the Bible. However these are NOT my speculations. This stuff has been known as long as the Bible has existed. People just like you have tried to keep it from the light of day and for centuries by using censorship and when that didn’t work physical violence. Those days are over which is why Christianity is disappearing faster than the glaciers in Glacier National Park. You know how when a light in a room goes out it appears to still be on for a split second? Christianity has gone dark, it is dead. We’re in that split second when the light still appears to be on but it isn’t.

και εγενετο μετα ημερας τρεις ευρον αυτον εν τω ιερω
What does that say? We already know how much Greek you know: none. And it happened after three days they found him in the temple.

How long did the rain fall on the earth?
How long did the embalming process take for Jacob’s body?
How long was Moses on Mount Sinai?
How long was Moses on Mount Horeb?
How long did Moses’ spies spy on the Promised Land?
How many days in a row did Goliath taunt the Israelites?
How long did the two meals the angel gave to Elijah sustain him?
How long did Ezekiel symbolically bear the punishment of the house of Judah?
When Jonah began to go into the city, how long did he say it would be before Nineveh would be overthrown?
Before Satan tempted him, how long did Jesus fast in the wilderness?
Or was Jesus tempted in the wilderness while he was fasting, and for how long?
Or did Jesus even fast at all?
How long did the resurrected Jesus appear to his disciples with many convincing proofs?
How old was Isaac when he married Rebekah?
How old was Esau when he married Judith?
How long did the Israelites eat manna in the wilderness?
How long did the Israelites actually wander in the desert?
How old was Joshua when he spied out the Promised Land?
How long did the land have rest before Otheniel son of Kenaz died?
How long did the land have rest according to the Song of Deborah?
How long did the land have rest in the days of Gideon?
How long did the LORD give the Israelites into the hands of the Philistines?
How long did Eli judge Israel?
How long did David reign over Israel?
How long did Solomon reign over Israel?
How long did Jehoash reign in Jerusalem?
According to Ezekiel how long was Egypt supposed to be uninhabited?
I suppose that it’s just a coincidence that all of these things took exactly 40 days or 40 years. The number 40 is just the number 40 and doesn’t mean anything special.

Done. Now how many more times do you need to be proved wrong?

I suggest these people have giant egos that won’t let them admit that they’ve dedicated their lives to studying a figure that never even existed. Look at poor Bart Ehrman. He can’t admit such a thing even though he has lost faith in God. You just can’t let it go. I’m so glad I’ve never had it.

Unlike you I don’t claim to be an expert on things I know nothing about. I just happen to know this particular subject matter very well, much better than anyone else who posts comments here. You should be thanking me for enlightening you. But instead people who didn’t even know this subject existed last week, like you, are now expert enough on it to tell me I’m wrong. :rofl:

I’m even more sure that you have no idea.

Given your complete inability to figure out which people on this forum are believers and nonbelievers, I don’t have much faith in your claim.

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I’d do the same if you tried to enlighten me on the bible code, British Israelism, or Joseph Smith’s golden tablets.

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Then you are not to be taken seriously. Its also strange that you know these journals have articles rife with misinformation and speculations when you don’t read them.

Correlation doesn’t equal causation. I could show you a graph showing a corresponding increase in the incidence of autism with increase in vaccine administration rates but it would not mean that vaccines cause or somehow influence a person’s risk of developing autism. The medical community had to do a lot of well-designed epidemiologic studies to unravel any potential relationship between vaccines usage and the risk of developing autism and today we have overwhelming evidence to reject any association between them.

You might be on to something but you must do the hard work to convince us. How did you establish these similarities are not coincidences?

Seconded by me.

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And how is that “accurate”?

They all believe that Jesus existed and the Bible is at least somewhat historical so they’re all the same to me.


Wrong again.

Three days from when? Nothing in the Greek grammar determines that. You are still dodging the question.

Regarding the symbolic use of “forty” in the Bible, I have not contested it. It is well-known. I also am well aware of the frequency of the numbers 7 and 12, and of how often their meaning is more than merely literal. But none of that proves that the 7s and the 12s all come from astronomical realities. For that matter, why aren’t you insisting that all the 40s in the Bible come from astronomical realities? What is it about the heavens that is “fortyish”?

There is no reason to assume that New Testament uses of 12 are based on anything other than Old Testament conventions about the 12 tribes of Israel. Your further claim that the tribes of Israel number 12 because of something astronomical remains unproved.

!!!

I’m against censorship of any sort, and have argued vehemently here against censorship connected with “political correctness” in the university and elsewhere.

I’m not trying to censor your views; I’m merely asking for evidence for them.

You see lots of 12s in the Bible, and 12 is significant in astronomy (e.g., 12 constellations of the zodiac); everybody grants this; but to conclude that the 12s are in the Bible because of the fact that 12 figures in astronomy, you need evidence.

You haven’t provided a single contemporary (1st century) source to show that even a single reader of Mark had ever read any Homer, let alone any evidence that knowledge of Homer was so widespread among the first readers of Mark that all or even most of those readers would have immediately recognized that Mark was making use of Homer. Where are your sources for this claim?

Would the average Galilean fisherman have read Homer? The average Jewish citizen of Jerusalem? The average follower of John the Baptist? Where are all these early Jewish or Gentile Christians who had studied Homer so closely as to note subtle astronomical references in Homer? Why can’t you name even one of them? Why can’t you produce even one text written by a 1st-century Christian that shows an in-depth knowledge of Homer? And if you can’t produce even one example, how can you expect anyone to believe that the author of Mark would have written his Gospel for people well-versed in Homer?

The most likely people to “get” subtle reference to astronomy in a text would be highly educated people who were used to certain literary conventions, subtle references, etc. And the most likely people to put such references into their works would be very educated individuals, well-versed in classical Greek language. But the Gospel of Mark is written in Koine Greek, not classical Greek, and as someone who has studied that Greek text in detail, I can tell you that even as Koine Greek goes, the Greek in Mark is pretty abominable; it isn’t the Greek of a someone who is fluent and natural in the language. (The Greek in the Gospel of John is much better, for example.) Mark reads like “translation Greek”, as if it’s coming from someone who still largely thought in Aramaic, even though he knew some Greek. The narrative style is also quite choppy and abrupt. So we are to believe that a hacker, writing in his second language of Hellenistic Greek, is well-versed in ancient literary theory and has read all the Greek classics of centuries earlier, written in a much more sophisticated version of the language? And we are to expect that a motley audience of early readers of Mark, a good number of them with only makeshift ability to read Greek (because they were merchants or fishermen, not scholars, and their native language was Aramaic or something else), would just naturally pick up subtle astronomical references?

You seem to be presuming a highly educated audience for the Gospel of Mark – only the cultured elite of the Hellenistic world at the time would be attuned to the sorts of literary subtlety you are claiming, whereas as far as we can tell, the vast majority of the early readers of Mark were among the yokels, with a knowledge of Greek about as subtle as the knowledge of English of the first immigrants to the USA on Ellis Island.

So it that your claim, that Mark was written by a hyper-educated Hellenistic writer, a master of Greek literature, and that he was writing for a very small, elite audience? It must be, because otherwise your whole scenario makes no sense. But then you have to explain why a hyper-cultivated Hellenistic literary theorist, writing for an upper-class educated elite who were used to reading Plato and Homer in the original, would write in barbaric Koine Greek. That’s the equivalent of someone who wants to explain the thought of Immanuel Kant to an audience of philosophically talented people writing in the language of the typical sports columnist in a New Jersey newspaper. It just doesn’t make sense.

So you need to give a much clearer account of who you think Mark was, what social class you think he was from, what you think he had read – and why he wrote in barbaric Greek. And you also need to give a much clearer account of the first readers of Mark’s Gospel – who they were, where they lived, what level of education they had, how good their Greek was, and so on. Only then could your theory about what Mark meant and how his first readers would have understood him could make any sense. But you don’t appear to be willing to do the hard historical and textual work to establish any of these things. And then you complain that the scholars are unfairly rejecting your ideas. But from where I sit, the scholars are doing exactly the right thing; they don’t pay any attention to you, because they’ve never even heard of you, and they don’t pay any attention to ideas like yours, because they have seen such ideas many times before, expressed with the same level of hyper-confidence and accompanied by the same lack of historical and philological evidence. Your place in the scholarly pecking order is exactly the right place.

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I read them for years. There’s nothing new in the world of biblical studies and “archaeology” other than the occasional hoax such as the Caiaphas or James ossuary or another “discovery” of Sodom or Noah’s Ark. They’re never going to find evidence for any events described in the Bible because they didn’t happen or the existence of any of the major figures in the Bible because they never existed.

By the sheer number of them. I gave you examples in both Testaments and they’ve pretty much been ignored because you people can’t seem to do the hard work to convince me. You don’t even know where to begin.
Transfiguration
Odyssey 16.167-307 — Mark 9:2-10
Odyssey: Odysseus was alone with Telemachus.
Mark: Jesus was alone with Peter, James and John
Odyssey: Athena transformed Odysseus and dressed him in a well washed cloak
Mark: Jesus was transformed and his clothes became a dazzling white, such as no launderer on earth could whiten them.
Odyssey: Telemachus was terrified by the transformation, thinking the beggar was a god, and offered gifts
Mark: The disciples were terrified by the transformation and offered to construct three tents.
Odyssey: Odysseus refused; he was no god, but the boy’s father.
Mark: A voice from heaven rebuked Peter and announced that Jesus was God’s son
Odyssey: Odysseus demanded that Telemachus keep his identity a secret.
Mark: Jesus demanded that his disciples tell no one what they had seen until after the Son of Man has risen.
Odyssey: Telemachus maintained secrecy
Mark: The disciples maintained secrecy

Thanks for at least acknowledging I “might” be on to something. The rest of the crowd should be so brave.

Because we know when the Age of Pisces began. Jesus is the Lamb of Aries who was sacrificed so we could enter the age of Pisces which he represents, metaphorically. Do you even know what that means? The man with the pitcher of water in Luke 22:10 is the zodiac constellation Aquarius. Following him into the house that he enters is a reference towards entering the new astrological age of Aquarius.

I’d prefer to look up information from credentialed researchers in Bible studies or archeology than you on Jesus or any other related topic, the same way I would consider the vast body of medical literature on issues relating to medicine and health. Sorry.

This is one big baseless assertion unless you can tell me how you know they will “never” find evidence that any biblical event happened?

That’s it? No other different, independent lines of evidence?

Its you who has to do the convincing because you are trying to draw those connections and you are failing to show so, frankly.

You have a hypothesis and that’s why I said you might be on to something. Its one thing to make a hypothesis, its another to test it. Go and test your hypothesis.

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The problem with your so-called biblical scholarship is that it is built on presuppositions that are never questioned and fraud. Most Christian scholars just blindly accept the dating of the New Testament to the First Century. On what basis? The same thing the entire religion is built on: wishful thinking. There’s no evidence that any of it existed before the time of Irenaeus which was around 180CE. The Old Testament didn’t even begin to be written down until 270 BCE. These “scholars” blindly accept the existence of characters such as Abraham, Sampson, Jacob and his sons, Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon and his temple, prophets such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel and of course Jesus when there’s not a shred of evidence in the historical record that any of these people actually existed. People living for hundreds of years, the flood story, the Babel story, the confusion of languages, the Exodus, the Conquest, the sun standing still, 186,000 Assyrians all dying on one night, the Davidic Dynasty - again not a tiny shred of evidence for any of these things. These scholars have tried for centuries to locate cities and peoples mentioned in Joshua as well as the New Testament to no avail. And to top this all off this “scholarship” has no explanation for why any of these things I mentioned cannot be verified. Except of course, that Satan hid the evidence to test their faith.

That’s because all of this is thinly veiled astronomy. The sun standing still has to do with the discrepancy between the astronomical year of 365 and 1/4 days and the sacred year of 365 days. This happens in Gibeon or “concave” referring to the vault of the sky. Seir means goat, Halak means portion, Eglon, Og, Gilgal circularity, Libnah is associated with the moon. Heshbon means calculation and in modern Hebrew it’s the bill one receives in a restaurant. Madon also concerns measurement. Philistines is derived from a root associated with revolving or wandering. The Israelites were overcoming what had previously been thought about various calculations involving the sun, moon and planets, not actual kingdoms and peoples. You’ll never find any history in the Bible because that is not what it’s about.

I mentioned William Drummond who had his work attacked by “real” scholars. That did not go well for the Christians. The Reverend George D’Oyly challenged him to find astronomical references in the Iliad and the Odyssey. Florence and Kenneth Wood accepted the challenge. “Not only a roll-call of forty-five Greek and Trojan regiments, but also the foundation of Homer’s star and constellation catalogue. Each of the twenty-nine Greek and sixteen Trojan regiments which fought at Troy is identified as a constellation and the commanders of those units are the brightest stars in the constellations.” It was discovered that the Iliad is not just a great poem but the accounts of armies, battles, wounding and deaths served as a mnemonic for pre-literate people which preserves the patterns and movements in the night sky. Yet today there are still people who think Homer is at least somewhat historical. And I bet you’re one of them.

Three days from the Passover which signals the passing from the Age of Taurus to the Age of Aries the Ram represented by Moses. It’s represented in Exodus by the Israelites leaving Egypt and passing over into the Promised Land. This is why the Jewish people blow the ram’s horn 72 times. There’s not a shred of evidence that the Israelites were even in Egypt. The temple story is a fiction and it only appears in Luke. I already discussed this and the fact that the author of Luke made it up.

Of for the love of God! You don’t even know that? Human pregnancies last for about 280 days or 40 weeks. The number signifies the end of one state of being and a new beginning among other things. I highly doubt you’ve taken a single class in biblical studies, Koine Greek let alone taught them. You just let that cat out of the bag. Again.

Nope. Your claims about the astronomical basis for the Bible will always and forever be unproved.

Why, so you can turn your nose up at them and say they’re just not good enough again? You lost this debate a while back now and you know it.

No, because he couldn’t read. He also wouldn’t be completely oblivious when it comes to the mission and destiny of Jesus and then turn around and make speeches to crowds about the same subject as the ultimate expert on the subject and then become a pope. Ridiculous. However ancient stories served as mnemonics for pre-literate people and Mark and Homer did a fantastic job of that.

Wrong again. I already covered that as well. Mark follows the conventions of a Greek tragedy/melodrama. Like a play, the scene changes are breathtakingly rapid, moving from house to synagogue, from land to sea, from mountain to desert, and back again in dizzying succession. The purpose, of course, is to keep a transient, illiterate and poorly educated audience engaged. Perfect for the modern reader as well. Except unlike the ancients, the modern readers have no clue what they are reading.

The Odyssey vs. the Parable of the Owner and the Servants in Marks

Just how similar are they, really?

Odyssey: Telemachus did not recognize his father
Mark: The father openly engages with the son, sending him on a mission to recover the estate.

Odyssey: Odysseus’ appearance miraculously changed by the goddess Athena
Mark: No such occurrence.

Odyssey: Telemachus felt abandoned by his father.
Mark: Son accompanied the father on the journey.

Odyssey: Odysseus returns as a beggar.
Mark: The owner returns openly

Odyssey: The son is reconciled with his father
Mark: The son is killed by the wicked servants.

Odyssey: Some of the servants remain loyal.
Mark: None of the servants remain loyal.

I could fill dozens and dozens of posts with a catalog of dissimilarities between the two accounts. These highly significant differences suffice to establish that any similarities between the 2 accounts arose coincidentally. The hypothesis of a common root in astrotheology does not explain the 2 accounts.

Equivalency of Celestial and City Maps in Revelation?

Your explanation of the huge discrepancies is that map making was poor back in the day. This concession re:map making undermines any ability to evaluate your claim of celestial and geographical map equivalency.

It is true that map making was very poor back in the day, which in turn implies that *any discrepancy of any configuration of 7 cities can be explained as the result of poor map making.

Consequently, it is impossible to evaluate a claim of star and geographical map equivalency based on empirical data because any empirical discrepancies can always be attributed to poor geographical map technique.

Since it is impossible to evaluate the claim of celestial and geographical map equivalency with empirical data, the claim must be characterized as unsupportable in theory and unsupported in fact by empirical data.

Regarding small towns west of Smyrna and south of Laodicea: they most assuredly existed. It should have been no problem for someone who had traveled the area to come up with candidate towns, if their intention were to implicitly portray the Pleiades. That the author did not include such towns, but instead included Ephesus and Philadelphia, implies that it was not the author’s intention to portray the Pleiades by the selection of cities.

The Pleiades in the Hand of Orion?

Conclusion on the Empirical Basis for Astrotheology

You have made dozens of assertions about equivalencies between astrotheology and the Bible in a long series of posts, Boris. I unfortunately do not have time to examine all of them. But I have examined 3 of them.

All 3 of the assertions you made are undermined by a careful examination of the empirical evidence.

Therefore I am inclined to think that the remainder of your assertions would be similarly discredited upon close examination.

I do not doubt the sincerity of your strong beliefs about astrotheology and the Bible, Boris. Because my careful examination of three of the supposed equivalencies you presented has not supported your assertions about them, however, I will have to go on to ideas that seem more promising to me.

Have a blessed day,

Chris

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You just affirmed my point, Boris. Your analytical ability is so poor that you judge anyone who disagrees with your sophomoric analyses as a believer.

How many atheists in this forum have you accused of being believers?

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The Epistle to the Hebrews was certainly written before 70 A.D. Would you like to know how this conclusion was drawn by Biblical scholars?

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