Callen and the Sacred Cows

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #1

Welcome @Michael_Callen. Tell us about yourself.

Classic Progressive Creation Literature?
(The Honest Skeptic) #2

Thanks for asking. I’m a Christian who has been interested in the origins topic for several decades. I would characterize myself as an old earth, progressive creationist, though I’m still finding my way. I’m not scientifically trained and never actually finished college, as such, I’ll misunderstand and ask questions that don’t make sense, but I’m a good learner, I think. I am skeptical by nature, so I will tend to look at a subject from the perspective of what cannot work, and then, once comfortable, embrace what I feel will work. I was directed here by Joel Duff, with whom I’ve enjoyed discussing these topic for many months. I feel passionate about civil conversation, and so the site that you have created (along with the attitudes fostered) are immediately appreciated by me. Finally, I would say that I feel very strongly that all camps have some very important evidences and opinions to offer, but that most are (sadly) unwilling to budge from their sacred cows. Therefore, not much progress has been made in terms of a cohesive (unified?) theory from a Judeo-Christian perspective, though I feel that is achievable. Again, thanks very much for this forum! It is refreshing!

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #3

I agree.

@Michael_Callen, what are your sacred cows? How are you coming to terms with letting them go?

(George) #4


Hey… great to have contributing your ideas! Your reference to sacred cows is perfect !

I think both sides would be able to worry less if they were confident that the other side wasn’t planning to BUTCHER their beautiful cow!

If a person is a Christian… who has already accepted the miraculous notion that God was born human, died and resurrected… then there should be no problem to accepting the idea that God created two HUMANS… and mixed them in with humans he created using his Evolutionary Principles!

(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #5

Hi Michael, welcome. I am the atheist scientist curmudgeon on the board who happens to be a secular humanist (with some Jesus-like characteristics and ideals). Regarding the science discussed here, if you need a little easy tutoring or explanation please asks as I am told that I am pretty good at explaining science related stuff. Also I am from New Jersey so my humor is Joe Pesci style.

Natural Theology vs. Design Arguments vs.ID
(S. Joshua Swamidass) #6

You made me laugh out loud again @Patrick, but it is so true. You are like Jesus in some important ways. Though I feel obligated to remind you that Jesus wasn’t turning over the moneychangers table on a regular basis, just once in 33 years. We have to be wise in our disruptive behavior too. :grin:

(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #7

That is the part of Jesus I didn’t like. He should have worked with the moneychangers to make more money in order to pay taxes to support more social programs for everybody. Free Market Capitalism (not Chrisitanity) has done an amazing job of making things like famine, disease, pestilence, abject poverty near non-existent in the world.

(Jon Garvey) #8

They were actually working for the Free-market Sadduccees, who (like some corporations nowadays) were the only Jews not to believe in an afterlife because they were doing OK out of this one. Their tables were finally overturned when the Romans wiped them out in 70AD, to few people’s regret, but according to Jesus’s prophetic warning.

(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #9

Do you notice how Jesus at 33 was considered in that time period to be the proper age to reach the pinnacle of public life. Today a 33 year old is considered on the young side of professional development and standing.

(Jon Garvey) #10

The older and less celebrated one gets, it’s sobering to see how young most of the greats of the past were when they died. They were making discoveries, writing symphonies, painting masterpieces and running empires when most of us were still struggling up some promotion ladder.

(The Honest Skeptic) #11

Testy is fine Patrick @Patrick … I’m not at all put off by your words! You mixed a little humor in there too. I think that everyone has a strong interest in their own belief, so we run into issues over that often. People on both sides often value the same things, but have differing approaches… so there can be sparks for sure.

As an aside, I joined this group yesterday and really enjoyed posting, reading, and replying… however there is a limit to the number of posts one can make in their first day. It seems that I met that maximum in my last post… so I’ve had this reply to you queued up for 24 hours waiting to send. Note: @swamidass I guess one cannot become a serial poster in day one?!

Re: Joe Pesci, My Cousin Vinnie is one of my all time faves.
Re: Jersey, what exit? :slight_smile:

Sorry, I think I’m replying to the wrong post, as it split / moved.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #12

Limit removed.

(The Honest Skeptic) #13

Thanks for asking. First, I’d say that I’m not willing to bend on the age of the earth. It is clearly ancient, the evidence presented for a young earth is falsified time and again, such that any reasonable person can only conclude that it is very old. Second, I would say that I’m absolutely convinced that God exists and that Jesus rose from the dead. I was once skeptical of this, so I still enjoy the dialog, but I cannot envision moving from this position.

That said, I’d like to think that (in terms of the origins topic) I’m staying open-minded. My inclination is progressive creationism, but I’ve appreciated reading and dialoguing with @Joel_Duff and others, who tend more toward the evolutionary creationism side. So, being here, and participating in conversations where my honest focus is to dialog and learn, is really my way of letting them go. My inclination is that the real answer is somewhere between the two positions (PC and CE) and I’m trying to be open-minded and see where the evidence leads.

I believe that honestly answers your questions. I guess that it would be easy to hang out where everyone agrees with one another and pats one another on the back. But I’d really rather learn and exchange ideas and opinions and see where I end up.

(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #14

114 GSP :rofl:

(The Honest Skeptic) #15

Hahaha… yes, you are so right. I guess if we butcher the sacred cows and then have a bbq together, all is good. Unfortunately, it often doesn’t go that way.

If a person is a Christian… who has already accepted the miraculous notion that God was born human, died and resurrected… then there should be no problem to accepting the idea that God created two HUMANS… and mixed them in with humans he created using his Evolutionary Principles!

I agree with you on both fronts. First that the gospel is a miraculous notion, and, second, that God could have created two humans (presumably Adam and Eve) and mixed them in with other humans that had evolved. I don’t know that this explanation fits the biblical text very well, and I’m curious as to how it meets with scientific observation and theory, but I don’t see how it should be ruled out as an idea. (Sorry, I’m still learning how to use the interface and don’t believe I quoted you properly!)

(Ashwin S) #16

I actually saw that movie… I loved it too…

(The Honest Skeptic) #17

My Cousin Vinny: Magic grits…


(The Honest Skeptic) #18

That was directed at you @Ashwin_s … I don’t know if I replied correctly or not.

Funny stuff though!

(The Honest Skeptic) #19

@Patrick Sorry I left you out Jersey!! I wasn’t thinking!! Classic Pesci, though, eh?? :slight_smile:

(Ashwin S) #20

Yes you did… I remember it… it was funny… :slight_smile: