Clinton Ohlers: Two Parables on Divine Action

[anon46279830]

A big thanks to both of you (Clinton and our host) for doing this. I think this was a key exchange between you:

@rcohlers

400 years after Bacon, I cannot imagine understanding nature well enough to determine by observation if something is natural or not.

That is a very interesting statement. It strikes me as historically quite modern, and – for the sake of rousing some controversy-- seems on the surface quite at odds with Christianity, as well as Judaism, Islam, and quite a few other religions.

I say at odds with Christianity because throughout the Old and New Testaments observers of divine miracles are not only expected to recognize their divine source, but are held accountable for failing to do so, particularly in the New Testament. I think of Christ’s “Woe to you Chorazin . . .” discourse in the Book of Matthew (11:21ff), for example. One wonders also how you would apply that statement were you present in Bethany for the raising of Lazarus or among the observers of Christ’s post-Resurrection appearances mentioned in the New Testament.

I’ll leave that to you to respond to that.

@swamidass

Let me suggest that I am representing a more true understanding of these traditions, all of which rely on God to reveal himself in revelation. Even in Bacon’s parable, the study of nature leads them to the Gospel of Bartholomew, and presumed that God would be working to reveal Himself. Revelation, however, was explicitly outside Bacon’s conception of science. The last Idol he discusses is one of the Idols of the Theatre, the Superstitious Idol. This is the culmination of Novum Organum . He writes that this is

consisting of those who out of faith and veneration mix their philosophy with theology and traditions; among whom the vanity of some has gone so far aside as to seek the origin of sciences among spirits and genii. From this unwholsome mixture of things human and divine there arises not only a fantastic philosophy but also an heretical religion.

Notice that Bacon simultaneously thinks that revelation is required to bring us to God, but it is not within the purview of science?

I am not sure that Joshua is taking Bacon within context there, but I get his point in the first paragraph. I think something @Ronald_Cram said in that excellent discourse @swamidass is having with him on this thread pertains to the subject here. He said…

Methodological naturalism must be open to the idea that some set of phenomena may be unexplainable by natural processes or the laws of physics.

And while I would edit the start of that statement to say “those practicing methodological naturalism…” I do think this point from Ronald is key. Take some event, say the healing of a long-term condition in a single hour after a prayer for healing. Should the most absurd and unverifiable natural explanation for an event be assumed over the most obvious supernatural one? If one has their natural sciences hat on as they look for natural explanations, the answer is probably “yes”. But that’s just while the hat is on.

We should be humans who use methodological naturalism as a tool, not methodological naturalists period. That is to say, we should be able to look outside our role as a MN and say as a human “I accept that this event was a miracle.” Does that mean one quits looking for natural causes for the event? Not at all, when one is wearing the hat. But the person should not be bound by the role.

We used to distinguish between “science” and “natural science”. “Natural Science” was not originally and should not now IMHO be the only kind of science which exists. Disciplines of study which use the Scientific Method to ascertain truth can and once were considered to be forms of science. The Scientific Method consists of noticing some puzzle or problem, or paradox, and proposing a hypothesis which is offered to solve or explain it. This hypothesis is then tested in some way which either confirms or rejects the hypothesis. The conclusion is based on the results so obtained. Often the conclusion calls for more testing to further refine our understanding. Reason is the primary tool used at each step of this process. Theology used to be considered a science, that’s why it has the “logy” in it! Maybe there should be a return to theology as a science, but its not a natural science.

It is the philosophy of naturalism, that nature is all that there is, which has caused us to confuse “natural science” with “science”. When one does so methodological naturalism invariably keeps poking over its true intellectual boundaries. It’s going to be work to keep it from doing so anyway, but I for one think its a job worth doing. The temptation is to get lazy either way and not make these distinctions properly which has the consequence of hamstringing MN on the one hand or turning into de facto philosophical naturalism on the other.