Cordova and Runyon on the fossil record

Hi Rich,

Nice to hear from you:

I understand where the first date comes from, but not the second. Why would the fossil record potential be a million years old?

The considerations I laid out above. However, more specific values were given in the Pitman link:

http://www.detectingdesign.org/?page_id=203

I like this diagram too in that link:

Now, one might think that after a few million years that all the layers would be turned into solid rock. How then could solid rock “squirt” up into overlying layers of rock? The popular explanation seems to be that many types of sediment, such as the sand which forms sandstone, does not necessarily have to solidify just because it has been buried under high pressure for long periods of time. 69 For example, in the drilling of oil wells, unconsolidated sandy layers have been found at depths greater than 1,000 to 2,000 meters. Of course, some of these sandy beds were filled with oil – which one might expect to contribute to the lack of consolidation of the sand in this layer. But, the general argument is that overlying shale layers consolidate before much water can escape from the underlying sandy layers. Thus, the consolidated shale acts as a seal to prevent water from leaving the sandy layers. So, the overlying pressure does not compact the sand in order to aid in cementation. The overlying layers simply “float” on a layer of water. When some sort of disturbance happens to crack the overlying layer or layers, the liquefied sand squirts up with great force through this crack and forms a clastic dike or pipe.69The problem with this argument is that liquefied layers are simply not that common. In this light, it seems rather strange, when looking at the pipes and dikes found in the Kodachrome Basin and elsewhere, that these formations are quite common in certain regions. They are found at multiple levels supposedly separated by millions of years of time. And, some of them even have central cores of clay arising from a layer of shale. How can a layer be preventing liquid water from getting through from underlying layers if it is itself still unconsolidated? What is so special about these areas that layer after layer of sediment retains the ability to squirt up into overlying layers? – to include those layers made out of silt as well as sand?Really now, it seems that a much easier explanation would be that the layers were in fact formed rapidly, one on top of the other, while they were all still soft. The pressure of the overlying wet sediments caused many of the underlying soft layers to squirt up all over the place through various weak points in the overlying soft sediments.

In fact it is you that have misunderstood the paper, as @John_Harshman pointed out to you in comment #225. You admit this in comment #228, but then you say:

Yes, the paper is making broader conclusions than simply “the fossils that are physically between the ash beds are between X and Y years old”. You seem to be taking that fact and claiming it supports your claim that “the information” (presumably about the ages of strata and fossils) is “cobbled together”.

Let’s just recap the conversation:

  • We explained to you that fossils are primarily dated by bracketing, and often this is based on correlated strata across long distances.
  • You implied such correlations are unreliable, and asked for an example of a fossiliferous layer sandwiched between igneous layers in a single location.
  • I gave you an example of just that, and the paper also mentioned extending their results to correlated strata.
  • Your reaction to this example was to say “look, I told you they try and correlate strata!”.

Do you see how you managed to completely miss the point, even ignoring a response to the request that you made?

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For the record that would be Sean D. Pitman, M.D. who is a medical doctor and who has zero training or experience in geology posting on his own YEC website.

Do you ever read or listen to any scientific evidence not from a YEC site?

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What in my comment do you disagree with, specifically? That I was being sincere? That you should study the subject yourself?

I never denied that my comment was a bit rude, I just pointed out that my words were entirely sincere. I never suggested that the only way to learn about this was to take a formal course, although of course that would probably be the best place to start. I was close to recommending some good textbooks and online resources for you to study yourself, but I decided you probably wouldn’t bother. Sadly, merely “interacting” with “several professional geologists” isn’t enough to provide expertise, or even necessarily a foundation of geological knowledge. If only that was how it worked, I’d certainly be an expert geologist and palaeontologist by now!

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Send em this way. Always looking to expand my library and online database

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There should be some rules. Sal should be allowed to skip to a new zinger only after he’s adequately responded to criticisms of his old zinger, and he should also be required to deal with one of ours for every one of his he posts.

Sal, if all the ways Science has to measure time are flawed and give false readings of billions of years, then why would the erosion rates Pitman bases his argument on be any different?

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Ok, maybe I’m wrong, maybe I don’t have an adequate explanation, maybe you’re right. Now can I move on?

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No. The point is that you shouldn’t be allowed to move on. You have to respond to what’s already happened. The Gish Gallop is not a reasonable framework for discussion.

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He did concede the point. What more could you want?

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Sorry, which of the countless points did he concede?

John, the issue is that I don’t believe what you say takes precedence over what I laid out. You can’t force me to believe something I don’t believe is true.

I was essentially asked why I believe what I believe. You may not accept my data points, my line of reasoning, the legitimacy of anything I say, but its what I believe.

You say I disregarded your points. Well, yes, I stated the reasons why. Namely I thought my data points took more precedence and yours were lower on the order of priority.

I’m happy to point out to my students the other side, but I probably laid out something they probably won’t hear in their college classrooms, and that’s what changed my mind from being and Old Earth Creationist to a Young Life Creationist.

I’m not trying to disrespect you as a human being or your professionalism, I simply don’t find your viewpoints convincing. I thought what I laid out qualified as those “ugly facts that destroy a beautiful theory” to quote Huxley.

If your side wants to refer me to a collection of opposing viewpoints, I’m happy to pass that on to my students and even my church group. There are people they would respect who believe in Old Earth, Old Fossil Record like Stephen Meyer, David Snoke, William Land Craig, Lee Strobel, Walter Bradley and several others including Joshua Swamidass!

I’m working on both the church website and the college course website over the next few weeks. I will provide links, and if you want to hang me out to dry before my students, we can have a 1 on 1 video online recorded debate or something and you can tell them about all my malfeasenses, Ok?

Otherwise, I’m sorry. No malice intended to you personally.

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Sorry, but that isn’t the issue. The issue is that you won’t even stick with what you laid out. When challenged, you just go on to something new.

Not a legitimate reason to ignore my (and others’) issues. This is about the fossil record, and if you don’t want to discuss the fossil record you shouldn’t be on the thread. You’ve ignored our issues, and you’ve ignored your issues.

Your “recap” is clearly a tactic of argument that you have been able to employ in other places and, at least to your fellows, give the appearance that you have won. That will not happen here with me, because I know I made myself perfectly clear in my explanation, and that you have failed to address my concerns.

So whaddaya say we take this approach with this argument. You produce the full paper or we simply do not move forward? Paper or drop it, in other words.

It doesn’t matter if a mule put this together. You still need to answer the challenge posed to your paradigm.

Do you know why @stcordova does this? Because you never fully answered the concerns he brought up in the former submission.

I am trying to tell you but you will not listen. There is a completely different and valid way to interpret the geological and paleontological evidence. You think that you own the science and can make grand conclusions about what it implies or infers, but in truth, you simply do not “own” it all and your “conclusions” are likely very wrong.

Will someone please answer this data minus all the noise? This is excellent data, and truth be known,

should be answered before we even move forward at all in this discussion!

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If Flood Geology theories violate laws of physics, and lead to non-trivial consequences that should leave observable evidence, then it’s fair to ask under what physics these theories operate, and why there are no observable consequences. We don’t need to answer questions about theories that are self-refuting.

I’ll tell you what happens next: We discuss some of the ways that Flood Geology violated physics, forcing the apologist to retreat into Omphalism, miracles all the way down, until the apologist denies the very truth they claim to have. I don’t really want to go down that road again (I kind of like Sal), but that’s where this will end up.

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We know exactly why he does it. He’s been dodging scientific evidence he can’t explain the same way for more than a decade.

No, there’s not. Your “method” depends on looking at each piece of evidence separately and making up an ad hoc excuse for each. Sometimes your ad hoc excuses will directly contradict one another.
Science is required to look at ALL the evidence taken as a collective whole and finding the best explanation for ALL the data together. It’s called consilience .

Refusal to consider how all the individual pieces of evidence fit together is reason #1 YEC “science” is such a dismal failure.

What do you think needs answering? A YEC non geologist made up a fanciful evidence-free reason for the well known geologic formation of dikes and sills, intrusions of rock into other strata.

Besides even if this YEC fantasy was true, how would the intrusions in this one tiny area of the planet somehow show strata across the whole Earth was deposited at the same time by a giga-Flood?

ETA: Dan just hit on another good point that Pitman’s fanciful scenario is impossible by the laws of physics. In order to get a “squirt” the downward pressure on a “thick” area must be greater than the pressure on the “thin spot”. An analogy is like pushing down on one end of a level see-saw to get the other end to rise. An overlying layer as shown in the diagram will apply uniform pressure across the bottom surface which will prevent any intrusions from developing. That would be like pushing down on both ends of a level see-saw equally - neither end will move.