Dale, Rich, and Greg discuss providence and Genesis

[Ashwin_s]

@DaleCutler

I’m not saying that’s what happened when God booted life, so to speak, and I am not proficient enough in the relevant disciplines to make any conjectural scenarios, but I don’t see any prohibitions to him having done it ‘naturally’ through special providence.

What do you mean by naturally?

[DaleCutler]

Without breaking any natural laws, like none were broken in the three occasions of God’s special providence just cited. God’s hand? Absolutely. Any natural laws broken? No.

[DaleCutler]

Don’t forget that I believe evolution was designed (there was planning involved for exaptation, for instance), and governed by God’s providence.

[Ashwin_s]

@DaleCutler

Without breaking any natural laws, like none were broken in the three occasions of God’s special providence just cited. God’s hand? Absolutely. Any natural laws broken? No

Natural laws don’t exist in an ontological sense.

@DaleCutler

Don’t forget that I believe evolution was designed (there was planning involved for exaptation, for instance), and governed by God’s providence.

You are ascribing abilities to nature independent of God. What’s the basis for this?

[DaleCutler]

@Ashwin_s

Natural laws don’t exist in an ontological sense.

And the universe is not self-existant. We agree.

[DaleCutler]

@Ashwin_s

You are ascribing abilities to nature independent of God. What’s the basis for this?

I am ascribing abilities to nature only those that he has given it, and I am ascribing to God the freedom to intervene at his discretion.

[Ashwin_s]

@DaleCutler

I am ascribing abilities to nature only those that he has given it, and I am ascribing to God the freedom to intervene at his discretion.

What’s your basis for saying nature has said abilities independent of God?
How is God sustaining said abilities if they run in their own unless he intervenes?

[DaleCutler]

@Ashwin_s

What’s your basis for saying nature has said abilities independent of God?

I believe in gravity – it is the God-given ability of masses to gravitate towards one another.

[Ashwin_s]

@DaleCutler

I believe in gravity – that is the God-given ability of masses to gravitate towards one another.

Ok… so how does God sustain Gravity?
Or is it something that is instrinsic to mass and does not need to be sustained?
Which would lead us to ask which parts of the universe are sustained by God and which are not?

[DaleCutler]

You are extrapolating, reading into my words things that I have not said, without warrant. I believe that God sustains the universe.

[He] upholds the universe by the word of his power.

[Rich_Hampton]

Dale’s idea of Providence is not what Catholicism/Aquinas teaches. Here’s a summary and explanation on the topic.

Question 22 - God's Providence

[DaleCutler]

My idea of the instances of God’s special providence where he does not break any natural laws but uses extraordinary placing and timing, and sometimes physical extremes, matches reality.

[DaleCutler]

…and scripture.

[DaleCutler]

My kidney account is a demonstration of how God’s providence in timing and placing extends to the molecular level:

From an mail to Matt, my pastor, 7/15/17 (a Saturday):

News

Just news, not good or bad particularly, but I am going to lose a kidney. My urologist called me after 5 yesterday [Friday] and said that I had a mass on my right kidney.

I had blood late [Saturday night] last week, and, in God’s providence, when I called Monday a.m., the doctor had had an appointment cancelation for that afternoon. My Co-instants Log entry:

7/10/27 [Monday] Having developed a significant bleed, I had just tried to call the urology clinic. The line was busy [WHAT?! No voice and answering system menu?!] so I picked up the nearby Joy & Strength* for today and read, "MOST GLADLY, THEREFORE, WILL I RATHER GLORY [BOAST! ] IN MY INFIRMITIES, THAT THE POWER OF CHRIST MAY REST UPON ME. 2 Corinthians xii.9 Wow. [The words jumped off the page at me. “LORD, I HAVE AN INFIRMITY!!”, I immediately said.]

Then I called back and… the doctor had had an appointment cancellation THIS AFTERNOON at 3:15. [Talk about co-instants! Otherwise it would have been three weeks or more!] My reply when she told me: “Perfect.”

So he scoped me Monday in the office and didn’t find the source of the bleed, and I had a CT on Tuesday. The former didn’t reveal anything about kidneys, but the latter is pretty definitive for kidney cancer. That is something particular to this affliction – a biopsy is not really needed, I guess. I don’t know anything about size/stage or grade yet, but I expect to be asking next week.

The very first thing I read [after clicking on the first online search result] when looking for info online was, “Your doctor has just told you that you have kidney cancer. Your mind whirls with emotion. Your spouse begins to cry.” Jeanne and I have both failed. [My mind wasn’t whirling with emotion and Jeanne did not begin to cry. We trust our Father. What he does is good – good for me, even if it is hard, and good for his name and honor, which is my desire more than my comfort.]

Our times are in his hands [Psalm 31:15], and that’s a good thing.

Bro’ Dale.

*Joy & Strength is a classic daily devotional that my mom, my sister and I used to read regularly. I don’t read it regularly so much any more, but it was within arm’s reach after the busy signal on the phone.

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8/1/17. Right radical nephrectomy – only 22 days from phone call to surgery, sooner than I otherwise might have been able to get even a first appointment!

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Of course, I have reflected on that verse and its meaning, “‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.”

One of the things that power means is the ability not to be afraid. Ever. In ALL circumstances, including sickness and death. “You can’t kill a Christian, all that you can do is change his address.” The most frequent mandate in the Bible is “Don’t be afraid” or one of its several variations – “Be anxious for nothing”, “Fret not”, and others. So it is the power to obey that mandate, and the power to obey it gladly. It means to be glad and cheerful no matter what the circumstances, even cancer. Father is in control and whatever he does is good for both of us. The doctor and his office and nursing staff at the hospital have never had a more cheerful nephrectomy patient.

Studying a little further, I discovered that the “rest” is to rest as in a dwelling. So that means that the power is the strength of God over me as a strong shelter.

As I quipped on Facebook, “My only complaint about my recent surgery to remove a kidney was that, while he was in there moving furniture around to gain access, he failed to leave me with six-pack abs. THAT was a total failure! ”

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A kind of funny and a co-instance footnote to the kidney account, showing that I was being taken care of in another way, too:

My recovery at home was so free of pain that I did not take ANY of the prescribed analgesic, Norco 10mg, an opioid. I was distinctly uncomfortable more than once, but never in severe pain at all, so that extra-strength Tylenol was all that I ever took. (I did look up the street value of the Norco, though, both here and in Omaha. )

But three months later, the week of Thanksgiving, I caught a relatively bad cold. I have had worse coughs, in that they were deeper and harder coughs, but I had never before had a cough like the one with this cold – I just could not stop coughing. I was coughing continuously and cough drops were not helping at all. I knew I needed a heavy duty cough suppressant if I was going to get any sleep, and we did not have any codeine cough syrup. It was Wednesday night before Thanksgiving about 10:30, and there would have been no easy way to get any.

I knew I had the Norco, so I looked on online for what the codeine content of a prescription cough syrup was, and it was exactly the same as the Norco, 10mg! So I was able to sleep, and was thankful! [And I know to Whom.]

[DaleCutler]

I just read what you cited and I don’t think I have a problem with it. How do you think my take is different from it?

[Rich_Hampton]

I’ve told you before, “special providence” is special because it requires God’s intervention, upholding creation does not. You’ve invented some third kind of providence that says God intervenes (special) by usurping nature’s given course (general) and then declaring its not intervention yet still special. I honestly don’t follow the logic.

[DaleCutler]

It’s not a third kind of providence, you are just not recognizing that God does not have to break natural laws to intervene on behalf of his people, but he can wonderfully orchestrate the timing and placing of events and circumstances that intersect their lives. Where any natural laws broken in any of the instances recounted, or do you deny that they were providential? I said no such thing as “declaring its [sic] not intervention”. I agree that you’re just not following the logic, honestly or otherwise.

[DaleCutler]

(Thanks, @dga471. We were momentarily and co-instantly working at cross purposes. )

[Rich_Hampton]

@DaleCutler

but he can wonderfully orchestrate the timing and placing of events and circumstances that intersect their lives. Where any natural laws broken in any of the instances recounted, or do you deny that they were providential?

Yes, and that’s called general providence.

This is where you say no, and insert a third kind of providence where you claim God intervenes but it’s not intervention.

[DaleCutler]

No, general providence is what happens to all people, special providence is reserved for his own.