A 2020 genetic analysis has found that the Bronze Age Canaanite population descended from earlier local Neolithic populations together with populations related to the Chalcolithic Zagros Mountains and the Bronze Age Caucasus. According to the researchers, this mixture is probably the result of a continuing migration from the Zagros and/or Caucasus to the Levant between 2500–1000 BCE. The study has also shown that the Canaanite population contributed to most present-day Jewish groups and Levantine Arabic-speaking groups. These populations are consistent with having 50% or more of their ancestry from people related to groups who lived in the Bronze Age Levant and the Chalcolithic Zagros. These present-day groups also show ancestries that cannot be modeled by the available ancient DNA data, highlighting the importance of additional major genetic effects on the region since the Bronze Age.
You are aware that Hebrew and English are different languages? Hebrew for Egypt is mitsrayim.
Genesis 39:1
And Joseph was brought down to Egypt; and Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh, captain of the guard, an Egyptian, bought him of the hands of the Ishmeelites, which had brought him down thither.
And Joseph placed his father and his brethren, and gave them a possession in the land of Egypt, in the best of the land, in the land of Rameses, as Pharaoh had commanded
You missed the point entirely. Hebrew Bible uses Mitsrayim. The Septuagint was written in Egypt. They captured the glory of the Indus mitsrayim by claiming that egypt was mitsrayim. The Hebrews had probably faint knowledge of their origins in the indus valley and they fell for it.
The “serious scholarship” was the source Wikipedia cited for these claims:
The Wikipedia quote was merely a useful summary of this “serious scholarship”.
So we have evidence that the ancient Israelites are genetically and linguistically closely tied to the Levant, and I believe that there is evidence (although I cannot immediately put my hand on it) that likewise ties their material culture.
What evidence do you have linking the ancient Israelites to the Indus Valley?
(Parenthetically, I think [wə·lū·ḇîm] = Libya.)
So if Mizraim = Indus Valley, please explain why these lands around Egypt are being discussed in connection with Mizraim, and were stated to be “among her allies”.
As I said above:
Addendum:
It was translated there, not “written” there.
Balderdash. There was no “Indus mitsrayim”, so it had no “glory” to capture.
The ancient Israelites would have had no knowledge whatsoever of this, because they did not originate in the Indus.
And no @OneGod, I will not “let it rest” until you either (i) stop making these ludicrous claims, or (ii) offer serious substantiation of them.
All you seem to have offered to date is simply an argumentum ad nauseam repetition of your claim, and some particularly flimsy parallels.
Surely. The Hebrews lived in the Levant after the Exodus and intermarried. So this is expected. Question is how did R-M124 get in?
The evidence you say is good. Indus is better. Let us compare. 1] Egypt was known as KMT before 13c BCE. No place named Misr ever. Indus had the city named Mathura in literature from 2000 BCE. 2] Pharaoh title could be redacted. In any case it is weak circumstantial evidence. 3] Multiple geographical problems. 3a] Egypt no parting of the sea. Indus: Obstruction of Indus River by mud volcano. 3b] Egypt No volcano at Sinai. Indus Taftan. 3c] No need to go to Aqaba, the third Yam Suf. The third Yam suf would be Shatt al-Arab. 4] No character parallel to Moses in Egyptian literature. Krishna is parallel. 4a] Kills Kamsa (~Mistrite) and flees. 4b] Returns. 4c] Leaves for unknown country ~ Exodus. 4d] Brothers kill each other ~ Killng at Sinai. Let us solve the problems with an Egyptian Exodus.
The name Mitsrayim was (wrongly) used for ancient land of Indus Valley; and (rightly) used for post-Exodus Egypt. It is, therefore, correct to use that name in the post-Exodus context.
And the response is to repeat the same ad nausem and repetition of the flimsy parallels as before.
Unlike your baseless assertions, the Wikipedia article actually has footnotes. If you followed them, you would find that Mizrayim as the reference for Egypt has ancient roots including Ugaritic and Assyrian texts, so it was not particular to Hebrew.
Mizrayim was the Semitic word for Egypt, it has nothing to do with the timing of the Egyptian self identity KMT. Speaking of language, it is nonsense to entertain that a Semitic speaking people could originated from the Indus Valley.
What glory of Indus? The history of the Levant reflects little consciousness of the sub-continent. Nobody much cared, let alone wanted to capture any glory. Much more influence derived from the Mediterranean, especially the sea people who invaded the Levant and Egypt.
The title of Pharaoh was particular to Egypt. Sorry if that is inconvenient for your narrative. Some Pharaoh’s are mentioned by name, as listed in this Wikipedia article: Pharaohs in the Bible. If you don’t like Wikipedia, do your own homework.
The level of genetic similarity between Jews, Canaanites and Leventine Arabs is sufficiently high to indicate that it is basal, not due to intermarriage. (“These populations are consistent with having 50% or more of their ancestry from people related to groups who lived in the Bronze Age Levant and the Chalcolithic Zagros.”)
R-M124 is very low among Ashkenazi Jews. This indicates that R-M124 is not basal in the Jewish population. (See my previous post giving evidence for this.)
Among non-Ashkenazi Jews, R-M124 is far less common within the priesthood (“Cohanim”) than outside it. As the priesthood would be less likely to inter-marry than other Jews, this indicates that it is R-M124 that entered some Jewish populations by intermarriage. (Evidence in same post.)
There are pockets of high R-M124 population scattered throughout Southwest Asia overlapping post-diaspora Jewish populations, meaning that we don’t need to further East, or further back in time, to explain the very limited ingress of R-M124 into some Jewish populations. [1]
We have been presented no evidence of R-M124 in the ancient Indus Valley, and only a survey based on an extremely small sample from one modern population in Bihar (which is part of the Ganges watershed, not the Indus) – making this survey unreliable.
It can therefore be seen that R-M124 is a complete red herring – so I wish you’d stop harping on about it.
You have completely failed to even attempt to explain why the ancient Israelites spoke Hebrew, a Leventine language, unrelated to the languages spoken in the ancient Indus valley.
Indus is completely awful!
This is not evidence – it is just three unrelated statements, of questionable accuracy.
I would note:
Misr is the Arabic word for Egypt. Given that Hebrew (“Mizraim”) and Arabic (“Misr”) are very closely related languages, this should not be surprising.
Current day Mathura is hundreds of kilometers from the Indus Valley, and has existed for thousands of years.
Mathura only has one letter in common with either Misr or Mizraim. This is no evidence whatsoever that they are the same place.
Thus, this is not evidence linking the ancient Israelites to the Indus Valley.
Better than no substantive evidence at all. This is likewisenot evidence linking the ancient Israelites to the Indus Valley.
This is easily explained by the fact that the Exodus narrative is widely regarded as being legendary NOT historical – a point you have completely failed to address!
[Addendum] Even if the Exodus narrative is not wholly legendary, the fact that it was written several centuries after its purported events leave it open to having ahistorical elements enter into the narrative. I would note that insisting that “Pharaoh” is an ahistorical element, but that the volcano, etc are historical is a fallacious Special Pleading.
Are you now equating the Red Sea with the Indus River? Ludicrous!
There are volcanoes all over the Medditeranean and Southwest Asia – no need to go as far east as the Indus.
This is likewisenot evidence linking the ancient Israelites to the Indus Valley.
Again, this is easily explained by the fact that the Exodus narrative is widely regarded as being legendary NOT historical.
In any case, this claim is false, as I have already explained:
And as I’ve explained before legendary parallels are commonplace and thus absolutely worthless as evidence.
This is likewisenot evidence linking the ancient Israelites to the Indus Valley.
Given (i) we have no evidence that the Exodus happened, there is likewise no evidence that “post-Exodus Egypt” is named any different from pre-Exodus Egypt, and (ii) we likewise have no evidence that it was ever “used for ancient land of Indus Valley” (rightly or wrongly), this is all just so much fact-free hand-waving.
I would conclude by saying that you have no evidence whatsoever linking “Mizraim” with the Indus Valley. It is all just wishful thinking on your part.
Good question, @Joe_Felsenstein - How did Moses know of his own death?
Also, I understand the women are from Moab, whom the Hebrew zera had pregnant; am I correct?
Was Moses aware that the Hebrew zera would enter Moabite female eggs and that this was the reason for this journey to Canaan?
Children received the citizenship status of their mother—that’s Roman law, am I correct, and how did that change the law of the Hebrews, Zera from Abraham?
How did this affect the word “chosen,” and what does that mean compared to “not chosen”? How is Canaan chosen why is this land so chosen for?
Was Moses comprehending Abraham for the sake of humanity or just for the end of Zera, which could fade to where?
What was the program for which someone wrote it, and why?
Who are the Moabites, and can you help me with this?
What is religion, why are there more than one religion, and is Moses a religion?
@John_Harshman I hope this is ok to share. One forum to another forum to show you I’m a human being. I feel like a human being too with so many emotions.
I am a human being just like you. I had learn about the Roman law from Bill_II who is a human as well.
I been studying about Exodus for over a year about. This brought my attention about Moab and Roman law and I now ask here in this forum. I carry with me my questions.
RS: Ok so someone wrote way before the Mishnah did
BL: Actually the Mishnah is “an authoritative collection of exegetical material embodying the oral tradition of Jewish law and forming the first part of the Talmud”. It was first written down in the 3rd century AD
BL: First the definition of Jew and Jewish has changed over time
BL: “the Mishnah states that the offspring of a Jewish mother”
RS: Basically it’s people who changes it. So first it was through zera seed patrilineal father, then changed to through mother, as the Mishnah states that the offspring of a Jewish mother: because influences from Romans.
BL: Given the Mishnah was first written in the 3rd century AD it’s definition would not apply to the people in the OT.
RS: it says in the article you shared were influenced by the Roman legal system of the time
RS: this was where I was hoping to show neighbors influences and how that affects. After reading your message now I understand what I was trying to achieve, it was neighbors and the influences of neighbors. How does Philistines influences the Hebrews, how did neighbors influences Hebrews, and you shared, how did Romans influences Hebrews - so perhaps one can write about Philistines here. See I learn this now. Its the word influences
RS: it wasn’t 'till reading what you wrote, I now understood what I was after, it was neighbors and how that influences, such as you wrote about Romans. If only I had written like you did, I could had a sense of direction and not lose control. Lesson learn I’m learning from this. I’ll apply more this word influences and see how that helps me direct more
RS: how did Philistines affect during Hebrews with Pharaohs. If only i had written like that
RS: how did Roman affect Hebrews in Yisrael? See how nice that is., how did neighbors affected.
Abraham for humanity, while all these neighbors influences that causes people to change the laws.
Abraham ever interacted with neighbors, how much interaction and how much influenced, or was the rejection from neighbors cause where it made it difficult for Abraham father of humanity?
RS: in article you shared In an intermarriage between a Roman and a non-Roman, a child received the citizenship status of its mother.
RS: see how neighbors influences and then look how the Mishnah had to please the Romans and change their laws., who’s a Jew?
It is not clear what you mean by “comprehending” in this context. However, I will try to address the two parts of your question separately:
Moses and Abraham: Moses and Abraham are both important figures in the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), but they lived at different times and were not contemporaries. Abraham is believed to have lived around 2000 BCE, while Moses is believed to have lived around 1200 BCE. Moses is considered a prophet in Judaism and Islam, and is credited with leading the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt and receiving the Ten Commandments from God. Abraham is also considered a prophet in these religions, and is known for his covenant with God, in which God promised to make him the father of a great nation.
It is not accurate to say that Moses “comprehended” Abraham, as they did not interact directly. However, both figures are important in their respective religions and are believed to have played significant roles in the history and development of the faith.
Zera: I am not sure what you mean by “Zera.” If you could provide more context or clarify your question, I would be happy to try to help you understand.
