Isn’t that the basic premise of “fine tuning” arguments?
Just good relationships, including with God Himself? Welcome to Christian thought, @Patrick. How’s NJ this morning? My son is driving through your state.
For some, a world filled with pain and suffering seems incompatible with the notion. I do not agree with that, however.
A world “perfect for humans,” in that kind of sense, would quickly become a Holocaust for everything else, including the planet. We live in a “probationary, provisional universe,” for now.
well if he is near exit 118 at lunchtime there is a nice church we can go to for a burger and a beer:
It is a sunny day in NJ today. Good Friday. A good day for godless living and free thought.
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Yet, the point of “fine tuning” arguments is precisely that reality has been fine-tuned for humans to exist, presumably by some conscious creator, right?
Yes; and your counterpoint is…?
According to Hugh Ross everything is fine tuned for us. The Big Bang, the location of the solar system, the Earth a billion years ago, and the dinosaur extinction, all for us today. Just prefect fine tuning to right now.
You noted that the multiverse idea seems to just kick the can down the line. Isn’t the creator idea kicking the can down the line? How perfectly do things have to be set up for a creator to exist that creates a perfect environment for us?
The famous "biker bar and church cafe? Specializing in grilled cheese sandwiches? Be right over!
Are you somehow looking for me to assign a mathematical value to “perfection?” How about a piece of pi, instead? ;o)
Well, you said the probabilities were different. I asked how you determined that.
Okay; gotcha now. Multiverse theory “works” by positing no infinite probability bound. In such a circumstance, nothing can be known with certainty. I do get why some folks prefer that, but it’s not reality. It’s just a comfortable fiction that tries to ignore things like death and taxes. See my point?
And the creator idea is not a comfortable fiction?
@John_Dalton It is definitely not. It renders me accountable to something outside myself. That is not, at first, a comfortable thing. Only after you get to know God’s character does it become comforting. And you begin to see that there is truth and fiction, and that these questions matter greatly.
Headed back to bed, for now… it’s 4 am in the PNW. Cheers!
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Hmm not really what I was trying to get at. From another angle, maybe to sleep on or wake up to. 
How do you know anything about the probability of this idea?
I’m not sure what’s so comforting about the multiverse in that case, by the way.
This may not be true. It might take fine tuning to produce a single universe. A multiverse might be the untuned version of cosmic inflation.
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Then again, how lucky do we have to be to enjoy a reality that spits out enough universes for us to have a good one.
Kind of makes my head swim just to think about it 
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Life clings to every edge, every shelf, every pocket. And the living things closest to the edges of oblivion are amazed at how close they are to oblivion.
While the living things in the middle of a giant forest…or a giant ocean… or a giant mountain look around and think the whole world is perfect for habitation…
10 posts were split to a new topic: Jay Johnson: Problems With Adam and Eve