Does God Adequately Avail Himself to Man?

[DaleCutler]

And his omniscient self-righteousness is astounding.

[dga471 (Daniel)]

@John_Harshman

Let’s say it comes as a voice out of a bush that burns but is not consumed, or from a pillar of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night, or perhaps Jesus himself appears before you, allowing you to insert your hand into the wound in his side as proof, and commands you. Pick any one or all of those.

If I received such a vision, following 1 John 4:1, I would test this vision according to Scripture. And as I explained in my post above, Scripture forbids Christians from engaging in genocide. Thus, I would conclude that the voice out of the bush is that from a deceitful evil spirit and not God himself. I would not obey the command.

Do you understand what’s going on here? God has commanded us certain things throughout history which are reflected in his Word. God’s will does not change, so no vision or apparition can convince a Christian to do something different from what is already reflected in God’s Word, for God cannot contradict himself.

@John_Harshman

I’ll take that as a “yes”. Why did God withdraw his mercy from all the Egyptian firstborn? Oh, and is it babies too that are all sinful and do not deserve life?

I don’t know, and God doesn’t need to explain himself to us. God is sovereign in who he decides to extend his mercy and not. Romans 9 is a good explanation of this.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Romans 9:14-24 (ESV)

[John_Harshman]

@Ashwin_s

If you refuse to think rationally about it, then it’s your choice.

Smug.

@Ashwin_s

I am certain you won’t like this answer.

Correct. It’s appalling, and I wonder how many other Christians around here agree with you on these points.

@Ashwin_s

As to the children (or even the adults) their condition in eternity is far more important than a transient life on earth.

Ah, I see. “Kill them all; God will know his own.”

[John_Harshman]

@dga471

I would not obey the command.

Well, that does you credit. So God would never actually give anyone such a command, and the various similar commands in the bible actually came from demons impersonating God. Works for me. But I think you are now in serious disagreement with Dale.

One further question: what if you heard a voice claiming to be God and commanding you to sacrifice your son to him?

@dga471

I don’t know

You don’t know if babies are sinful? And how do you know God wouldn’t command you to kill all the Lithuanians? If it’s his choice to kill anyone he wants, and we can’t question him, how are you to know that he isn’t making you his instrument for that purpose? What if he hardens you?

[Ashwin_s]

@John_Harshman

Ah, I see. “Kill them all; God will know his own.”

Actually, you don’t see at all.

[John_Harshman]

So, to recap. God could do it any time and it would be righteous because everyone is sinful and deserves death but for his mercy which he can withdraw at any time but if he tells you to do it you know it’s not really him because he wouldn’t do it because Jesus said not to except when he actually did it like with the Amalekites.

[DaleCutler]

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

[dga471 (Daniel)]

@John_Harshman

So God would never actually give anyone such a command, and the various similar commands in the bible actually came from demons impersonating God. Works for me. But I think you are now in serious disagreement with Dale.

Again, please read what I actually wrote to you instead of trying to misrepresent my views.

@John_Harshman

One further question: what if you heard a voice claiming to be God and commanding you to sacrifice your son to him?

Same answer as before: look at 1 John 4:1.

@John_Harshman

You don’t know if babies are sinful?

That’s not what I meant. I meant that I don’t know why God decides to withdraw his mercy sometimes and not others. Not my place to demand God for an explanation. Again, remember the book of Job!

@John_Harshman

And how do you know God wouldn’t command you to kill all the Lithuanians?

I already answered this question. Do you actually read my posts in reply to you, or do you just say what comes to mind?

@John_Harshman

If it’s his choice to kill anyone he wants, and we can’t question him, how are you to know that he isn’t making you his instrument for that purpose?

Because it would contradict God’s Word.

@John_Harshman

What if he hardens you?

Well, I think he won’t, because I’ve already been fortunate to have a heart that loves God and desires to obey his commands and participate in his plan of salvation. I have the Holy Spirit in me, which will seal me until the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14). I pray that the Holy Spirit will work in your heart, too, @John_Harshman, even as you seem to be so obstinate in your unbelief. God bless you!

[DaleCutler]

@dga471

John_Harshman:

What if he hardens you?

Well, I think he won’t,

You can more than just think he won’t if your heart of stone has been replaced.

draft2 – The Christian’s Confidence
https://docs.google.com/file/d/1t2vwVIXTdIrR3AE6oXi9nucmS2hYk3F9/edit?usp=docslist_api&filetype=msword

[DaleCutler]

Another take, contrary to self-righteous omniscience about genocide:

The Flood "Removed" not "Killed" Everyone?

You’ve raised a view for me to think about. My dissertation was on Deuteronomy’s theology of exile. One of the things I noted was that the terms for exile are not the normal ones, but death/annihilation terms (e.g., Deut 4:25; 28:63). While I make theological implications of this (i.e., exile = death), it also helps interpret the use of death language elsewehere, e.g., the so-called genocide texts in Joshua (i.e., the kill-them-all texts could be fulfilled by removing the Canaanites from the land and not necessarily literally killing them).

[John_Dalton]

@dga471

I pray that the Holy Spirit will work in your heart, too, @John_Harshman, even as you seem to be so obstinate in your unbelief.

Reading some of the stuff in this thread makes that more unlikely for me. I could appreciate Christianity more if there was a willingness to simply recognize some of the obviously horrific notions in the Bible as such, rather than trying to justify them with various equally horrifying concepts.

[DaleCutler]

See my post immediately preceeding.

Does God Adequately Avail Himself to Man?

Another take, contrary to self-righteous omniscience about genocide:

[SpareHeadOne]

I am a Christian and I fully except that God is evil in the same way we are evil. I think it takes a severe case of cognitive dissonance in order to believe the bible and also believe that God does not do evil things.

[John_Harshman]

@dga471

Again, please read what I actually wrote to you instead of trying to misrepresent my views.

It’s hard because what you actually wrote is self-contradictory in some places and ignores contradictions in other places, so your views are unclear; thus it’s hard to know when I’m misrepresenting them. I’m trying to get straight answers from you, but they aren’t coming.

You must have known this was coming: why should Abraham have believed the command to sacrifice Isaac came from God? There was no mention of Jesus, as you say would be required. Further, what if you heard a message that fit the requirements of 1 John 4:1, again commanding you to kill your son?

@dga471

I meant that I don’t know why God decides to withdraw his mercy sometimes and not others. Not my place to demand God for an explanation.

Then why wouldn’t you accept that God has decided to withdraw his mercy from the Lithuanians? You have answered the question in a way that’s seriously inconsistent. Do you contain multitudes? It contradicts his word, but you don’t know what he will do at any time. It’s impossible to get a self-consistent view of what you believe.

[John_Harshman]

Next you’ll be poking them with the soft cushions.

[John_Harshman]

1 Samuel 15:1-3.

Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the LordAlmighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

So here are some choices:

1. That wasn’t genocide because…OK I can’t come up with a reason here. Fill in your own.
2. God commanded genocide, but it’s kosher because he commanded it.
3. Samuel was lying or deceived, and that wasn’t really God commanding it.
4. What God really meant was to send the Amalekites into exile, he just had a funny way of putting it.
5. That story didn’t really happen.
6. That was in the old days, before Jesus changed the rules.

Others?

[SpareHeadOne]

Bible says God has created certain people for the purpose of destroying them.
Bible says he pre-planned who would be saved and who would be destroyed.
Bible says that’s just tuff coz God can do whatever he wants.
Bible says God works all things for the ultimate good of those he has chosen.
This is great if you are on Gods team and senseless if you are not with God.

[dga471 (Daniel)]

@John_Harshman

It’s hard because what you actually wrote is self-contradictory in some places and ignores contradictions in other places, so your views are unclear; thus it’s hard to know when I’m misrepresenting them. I’m trying to get straight answers from you, but they aren’t coming.

What’s happening is that you’re trying to apply modern, secular, 21st century categories onto Christian morality and the Bible and they doesn’t fit it very well. I will refuse to answer questions based on categories and terms that you have predefined, because they are not the right categories. I’ve tried to explain what the right terms and categories are throughout this thread, but you don’t seem to understand it. It’s like explaining quantum mechanics to someone who only thinks classical mechanics can make sense.

@John_Harshman

You must have known this was coming: why should Abraham have believed the command to sacrifice Isaac came from God? There was no mention of Jesus, as you say would be required.

This is an fascinating passage. It seems that Abraham trusts God in some way, even though he commanded him to do something completely outrageous even by the standards of the time. It’s not clear whether Abraham trusted that God would intervene before he did it. I read that Kierkegaard wrote a lot on this passage and I’m looking forward to reading him first before giving a thought-out view.

@John_Harshman

Further, what if you heard a message that fit the requirements of 1 John 4:1, again commanding you to kill your son?

I think you still haven’t understood what the implications of 1 John 4:1 means. I doubt that you have actually read the verse and thought about it, based on what you’re writing here. You’re like an undergrad who claimed that he’s done the reading but actually is trying to bluff his way through class. Here is the verse in context:

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is *the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

Now think what it means for a spirit to confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. Is simply saying that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, or does it mean to actually respect the truth of what Christ said?

@John_Harshman

Then why wouldn’t you accept that God has decided to withdraw his mercy from the Lithuanians?

It could be that God has withdrawn his mercy from the Lithuanians, and that something happens to them as a result. God can work in many ways. What I know, however, is that he will not use me as an instrument to harm Lithuanians through my actions because that is contradicted by his commandments in the Bible to bless my enemies (which again, is God’s Word).

You have to understand what the Bible is. As a Christian I believe it to be God’s infallible, authoritative Word. It’s immutable. We have to follow it no matter what. God can’t revoke the Bible because that would contradict his very nature as God. Thus, your questions asking, “What if God appears to you in a vision and says something contrary to what the Bible teaches?” is a misplaced question, because of two reasons:

1. It privileges subjective personal visions over the received, written Word, which is a common misconception of revelation in Christianity (prevalent even among some Christians as well, unfortunately!). Perhaps you have a caricature in your mind that religious people pray, experience visions and then go out and do whatever they see in their visions, no matter how irrational or immoral it is. This is as gross an error as the misconception that atheists must surely be one step away from committing atrocities since they don’t have an absolute standard of morality! For a Christian, there are crucial missing steps: testing the spirits by the Scriptures (1 John 4:1-2), and asking for input from the community of believers (such as pastors, elders, and mature believers) to help interpret the vision.
2. You are basically asking “What if God lies?” which is like saying, “What if God is not God?” That is an incoherent question.

@John_Harshman

You have answered the question in a way that’s seriously inconsistent.

They only seem contradictory because you refuse to read the Word systematically as opposed to in bits and pieces.

[John_Harshman]

@dga471

This is an fascinating passage.

You persist in failing to answer questions, very convenient when answering them would force you to deal with your own contradictions.

@dga471

What I know, however, is that he will not use me as an instrument to harm Lithuanians through my actions because that is contradicted by his commandments in the Bible to bless my enemies

So why did he use the Hebrews as his instrument in harming the Amalekites? Is it that the rules post-Jesus are different from the rules pre-Jesus?

@dga471

1. You are basically asking “What if God lies?” which is like saying, “What if God is not God?” That is an incoherent question.

If I recall, God admits to lying at least twice in the bible. Was he lying when he did that?

@dga471

They only seem contradictory because you refuse to read the Word systematically as opposed to in bits and pieces.

I think you’re the one who’s reading in bits and pieces. You really can’t reconcile 1 John 4 with many events in the Old Testament. But you refuse to think about that.

[dga471 (Daniel)]

@John_Harshman

So why did he use the Hebrews as his instrument in harming the Amalekites? Is it that the rules post-Jesus are different from the rules pre-Jesus?

God’s command to the Israelites to wipe out the Amalekites were a limited, specific command in a specific time and place. It is not an endorsement of wiping out your enemies any time you feel like it. You don’t even need to ask a Christian to defend this interpretation; why don’t you ask orthodox Jews (who also hold to the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament) why they don’t go around trying to wipe out their enemies everyday?

And yes, the “rules” are certainly different, because Jesus has fulfilled the law through his sacrifice on the cross and resurrection. As New Testament Christians, we are no longer living in a Jewish theocracy as we see in the Pentateuch and historical books of the Old Testament. This is also why Christians don’t observe Jewish ceremonial laws like observing kosher. Jesus’ kingdom is not of this world. It is not a kingdom with political and military might that crushes other nations which stands in its way, but an invisible kingdom made of true believers and followers of Jesus Christ, working together to be the salt and light of the world.

@John_Harshman

If I recall, God admits to lying at least twice in the bible. Was he lying when he did that?

Haha, you can’t just make up stuff from thin air and ask me to defend something I don’t even know what you’re referring to. Bring up the actual passage, please.

@John_Harshman

I think you’re the one who’s reading in bits and pieces. You really can’t reconcile 1 John 4 with many events in the Old Testament. But you refuse to think about that.

I’ve certainly thought a lot about it, and straight up examined the test cases you up to me.