Near Death Experiences represent an evidence set IN FAVOR of a soul surviving the body. If anything they support the Essene view better than a Pharisaic one.
No it doesn’t. Oxygen starved brains can create all kinds of delusions.
I understand your bias. And out of respect for your bias, I didn’t say “proof”. I said:
“Near Death Experiences represent an evidence set in favor of a soul surviving the body.”
Evidence is not necessarily proof. It is only after all Evidence is “in” that we must decide whether we are convinced or not - - even if no definitive proof is ever provided.
And I said it doesn’t based on numerous studies on how oxygen starved brains create all kinds of delusions. It is not bias. It is science based work in neurology. All reported “Near Death Experiences” when investigated have been found to be common responses and due to completely explainable effects inside the brain of the people experiencing those effects.
You are struggling with the difference between “Proof” and “Evidence”.
Evidence is virtually anything that is marshaled to make a case.
You say it is lack of oxygen, and I say, that since this isn’t the proven cause in near death experiences, I can rationally reject what I think is more a surmise than a conclusion?
Follow me when it comes to evidence vs. proof?
No I am not. There is no such thing as Proof in science. Only provisional truth until new evidence comes in confirming or changing the provisional truth. Evidence is data gathered to use in finding provisional truths.
Perfect. Then you should not have a problem with a person saying they have
gathered Near Death Experience narratives as part of his evidence set that he believes
or construes as being favorable to a belief in the existence of a soul separate from the body.
Go ahead… tell me that I’m using the word incorrectly … when I’m using it exactly as you just defined it.
I have no problem with a person saying anything especially after coming close to their own mortality. But a person saying something is just a person saying something. It isn’t known whether the statements are factual or not. That where scientific investigation begins. When all the investigation of all the claims of Near Death Experiences are studied along with all of neuroscience current knowledge of how the brain works the conclusion is that there is no evidence of a soul after brain death.
The plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data’.
Oh brother. “Anecdotal evidence” may not be systematic … but it is STILL evidence.
Evidence is gathered wherever it is to be found…
It is not within your power to tell a person what is “relevant or not” when it comes to what has bearing on a person’s personal expectations. If it were possible to do that, all Atheists would believe in the same kind of Atheism… and so on.
Science nor me are telling a person anything. We are just listening and trying to understand what the person is saying. Each and every person who claims to have had a near death experience is listened to and compared with the data on hand during the near death experience. Then the data is collected and analyzed with every other NDEs. Similarities emerge, conclusions are drawn. That is how science works.
A guy I had coffee with the other day said that during the Thanksgiving Weekend last year that he had died and was revived by paramedics. He thanks God for letting him live again and he said it was Jesus who told him this during the time that he was dead . He said that Jesus said to him that Jesus wasn’t ready for him yet. I asked my son about this who is an EMT in town. Looking up the records, the guy lost consciousness for about 15 seconds, his heart never stopped beating and he was treated at the hospital for dehydration and released.
So… There was a researcher who investigated the phenomenon of ‘recovered memories’ and whether these recollections could be trusted as true accounts of past trauma or were just imagined creations. She wondered what sort of control group she could use for this. She needed people who claimed to have memories of something they couldn’t have experienced and found “ET abductees”. These were people who claimed they were abducted by aliens and recalled very specific details about their experiences.
Ultimately, the researcher found that recovered memory and alien abductee groups displayed similar traits and signs, distinct from the other, negative control groups. This and other evidence made a strong case that testimonies from “recovered memories” were highly suspect.
When she presented the results at a psychology meeting, she received a lot of push-back from recovered memory proponents. One countering questioner asked: “How do you know the control group members weren’t actually abducted by aliens?”
You keep trying to make belief, faith and truth about Science.
It’s really not about Science, it’s about a person’s VERDICT on the evidence in his or her life.
I say VERDICT, because it is not Science that is ultimately summoned on one’s death bed,
should one be so lucky as to have a moment so distinct. It’s about Evidence gathered in
one’s life and a FINAL VERDICT (or any number of preliminary verdicts if a Final Verdict
is denied a person).
A person can make it “all about the Science”… or he/she can make it a blend of Science and
other matters… or he/she can make it all about matters other than Science.
Science is what should be employed in the conduct of civil affairs… it is above the claims of
But what a person individually summons can be whatever he or she feels is necessary for
You can conduct “science shaming” about Christianity if you so desire… but please do so
outside the confines of www.PeacefulScience.Org. We would all appreciate it.
Then how do you explain the guy in your previous post?
The speech centers in his brain are functioning normally, however, he suffers from an impairment of the posterior cortex where almost all conscious experiences have their origin. Perhaps he would offer his brain to science after he dies, as it seems like a good one to place in a jar with the name Abby as in abby-normal.
Here’s a nice little booklet on the evidence for life after death. I haven’t read it but all the other booklets on this site are from top scholars:
There’s a book by J.P. Moreland and Gary Habermas that cites peer reviewed journals of documented NDEs where the patient meticulously described events that occured while they were dead.
I also hear the book Irreducible Mind is the most scholarly treatment of this to date.
The final chapter of the IRREDUCIBLE MIND
By Michael Grosso, Edward F. Kelly, Emily Williams Kelly, Adam Crabtree & Alan Gauld
What did you mean to “say” with your last post?